Today's pic was sent in by the Headless Chicken, who was puzzled by the giant bulge in Kendrick Perkins' shorts. Did he dislocate his hip or was he just really happy to be bodied up to a "dominant" center? You be the judge.
The Boston Celtics: Well, nobody said defending the NBA title would be easy...but the Celtics are making it look REALLY hard. Last year, they lost in Boston only once during playoffs (in Game 2 of the Eastern Conference Finals). As of last night's 95-90 loss to the Magic, the Celtics have now opened two consecutive playoff series by dropping Game 1 at home.
I don't know if there was a physical and emotional hangover from the Bulls series or what, but the Leprechauns came out flat-footed on offense and a step slow on defense. The Magic led by 18 at the half (54-36) and went up by 28 points (65-37) early in the third quarter, thanks mostly to some truly bawful shooting by the Celtics (38 percent for the game). But, of course, Orlando is one of those "let 'em back in the game" teams, so...
The Orlando Magic: It can truly be said that no deficit is safe against the Magic. They simply will not allow their opponents to get blown out. So that shoulda-been-safe 28-point lead got whittled all the way down to four with less than a minute to play and then to only three when Paul Pierce drilled a three-bomb with 6.6 seconds left. But Orlando got the ball to J.J. Redick, and he kicked in a couple fouls shots to seal the deal.
Despite the win, Stan Van Gundy was understandably unsettled. "The last 16 minutes was a debacle. We were sort of trying to run out the clock, and you can't do that in games like this. Especially in the playoffs, teams are going to keep fighting and keep coming back." Added Dwight Howard: "We got complacent as a team, stopped doing what we did to get the lead and against a good Celtics team you can't do that." Those are nice sentiments and all that, but this is the third time the Magicians have coughed up a 20-point lead in the playoffs. It might be time to, I don't know, make some adjustments.
Paul Pierce and Glen Davis, regret machines: Said The Truth: "We can't wait until we're down 25, 26 points until we wake up. There's no excuses for us not to be ready." Added Big Baby: "If we had played the rest of the game like the second half...it's hard to play from behind. That's what we did and we lost."
Rajon Rondo and Ray Allen: They combined to shoot 4-for-24 (including 1-for-9 from downtown). That's 16 percent field goal "accuracy" from two of your primary scorers, which probably isn't going to get it done. I mean, they made Stephon Marbury (4-for-6) look positively en fuego. Most interesting, to me, is the Curious Case of Rajon Rondo. He was on fire through the first five games of the Bulls series, going 48-for-94 (51 percent) from the field and 4-for-7 from beyond the arc. But since then, he's 8-for-37 (21 percent) and has missed all four of his three-point attempts. Maybe this is the Revenge of Brad Miller in action, because Rondo hasn't been himself since all the brouhaha surrounding the flagrant-that-wasn't-a-flagrant.
Update! Rajon Rondo's airballed free throw: I really can't believe I forgot about this one. Fortunately, eileen had my back and said: "Rondo's airballed free throw was the ugliest shot I've seen in a long, long time." (Huh. I guess eileen hasn't seen this.) Anyway, onto the video...
The Los Angeles Lakers: It all the hurry and hubub to crown the Lakers "The Lords of the West," someone forgot to tell them that they still have to win a certain number of games to reach the NBA Finals. I don't get it. It's like they haven't shifted into their playoff gear yet. Not consistently, anyway. They don't seem any more intense than they did during most of the regular season...and not even half as intense as they played during their two games against the Celtics. I mean, I know all that winning can get really boring, but c'mon.
Now Basketbawful reader Joseph T. feels there was a more sinister reason for L.A.'s Game 1 flopparoo. "I am a Lakers fan, and I admit they stunk up the joint last night. Kobe and Gasol couldn't find the bucket with a flashlight and a map. BUT...they didn't lose because of that. They had more rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks, made more shots, and had 3 fewer turnovers. How did they lose do you ask? Reverse Home Cooking. A MASSIVE 12 foul difference. Houston was called for 14 fouls, L.A.? 26. Houston also shot 10 more free throws as a direct result." I'm not sure I saw much of a problem with the officiating myself, particularly since Houston's last eight FTAs were the result of intentional fouls.
Meanwhile, Basketbawful reader Karc is predicting sweet, sweet oblivion for the Lakeshow: "And now the Lakers are officially in trouble. I mean, seriously, the Lakers had more shot attempts (+15), more rebounds (+2 total, +6 offensive), more assists (+1), fewer turnovers (-1), more blocks (+1), more steals (+3). And they still lost. Of course, that usually happens when a physical team psyches you out into fouling more (+12), making your best player take bad shots all night (14-for-31), and making the rest of the team live and die by the three (2-for-18). And this is not like the usual case where LA blows a huge lead. They never led in the second half. Not once. [Editor's note: L.A. actually did briefly take a one-point lead in the fourth.] Credit the Houston defense, or Kobe Bryant blowing a save (he is 'The Closer' after all). I almost want to say Houston will sweep them, because nothing that the Lakers did indicates that they can bounce back from this. And even if they do, Denver and Cleveland are ready to dish out the same, only with a better point guard (Billups) and the MVP of the league (James). Adios, Los Lakers."
Me, personally, I don't think the refs stole the game from the Lakers, nor that L.A. is in serious trouble. Yet. But they do need to amp up their intensity and (single entendre comig) keep it up, or they're going to fall into a pothole on their road to the championship...and break their face.
Lamar Odom: If you know anything about Odom, it's that once the playoff pressure is on, he's going to start shanking his foul shots. And, sure enough, he went 1-for-6 from the charity stripe last night.
Kobe Bryant: Stephanie G sent me an email that said: "Kobe is a dick. Just sayin'." And while that statement doesn't necessarily require any hard proof, she provided the following animated .gif as evidence anyway:
Phil Jackson: My buddy Craig from The Association sent me the following text last night: "Phil Jackson is showing his age. It took him 10 minutes to figure out that [Derek] Fisher can't guard [Aaron] Brooks." That made me realize, Phil hasn't been himself lately. I mean, playoff time is usually Jackson Time. That's when he finds new and interesting ways to inspire the troops, makes countless sly adjustments, works the refs, lobbies with the press and basically stays one mental step (or 10) ahead of his coaching counterparts. Maybe it's his physical health, or maybe he's just ready for retirement, but P-Jax doesn't seem to have the same 15+ pieces of flair he usually has. (And 15 is the bare minimum.)
Lacktion report: Last night was a little light on the lacktion, but Chris still came through with a few tasty morsels: "In Houston's somewhat shocking victory at Staples Center, Von Wafer -- the only lacktator tonight -- served up a delicious +5 suck differential in 7:50 via foul, two giveaways, and two bricks!"
Cleveland: Congratulations, folks. Your superhero is the NBA MVP and your basketball team is already getting finger measurements for their championship rings. But I have some bad news for you...you're still Cleveland. Yeah. Sorry 'bout that.
Accomplishments without perspective: By the way, some of you have been commenting or emailing me about all the noise being made about D-Wade's 100-block, 100-steal season. Here's a list of the 133 times that feat has been accomplished since the NBA started keeping track of blocked shots. (Otherwise I'm sure we'd see names like Wilt, Russell and Oscar -- among others -- on the list.) Not to demean what Pookie did, because it's pretty darn rare, but finding out that guys like Clarence Weatherspoon, Dan Roundfield and Oliver Miller have already done that sure take a little shine off of the apple, doesn't it?
Labels: Boston Celtics, Houston Rockets, Los Angeles Lakers, Orlando Magic, Worst of the Night
70 Comments:
Word of the Day
Previous Posts
Worst of the Weekend: First-round Elimination editionWorst of the Playoff Night: April 30, 2009
Swine flu versus basketball players
Ron Artest: Best interviewee ever
Worst of the Playoff Night: April 29, 2009
Worst of the Playoff Night: April 28, 2009
Worst of the Playoff Night: April 27, 2009
Worst of the Weekend: Playoff Rollercoaster edition
Friday afternoon man love/one final vote request
WotPN: In a galaxy far, far away
Links
Archive
January 2005February 2005
October 2005
November 2005
December 2005
January 2006
February 2006
March 2006
April 2006
May 2006
June 2006
July 2006
August 2006
September 2006
October 2006
November 2006
December 2006
January 2007
February 2007
March 2007
April 2007
May 2007
June 2007
July 2007
August 2007
September 2007
October 2007
November 2007
December 2007
January 2008
February 2008
March 2008
April 2008
May 2008
June 2008
July 2008
August 2008
September 2008
October 2008
November 2008
December 2008
January 2009
February 2009
March 2009
April 2009
May 2009
June 2009
July 2009
August 2009
September 2009
October 2009
November 2009
December 2009
January 2010
February 2010
March 2010
April 2010
May 2010
June 2010
July 2010
August 2010
September 2010
October 2010
November 2010
December 2010
January 2011
February 2011
March 2011
April 2011
May 2011
June 2011
July 2011
August 2011
September 2011
October 2011
November 2011
December 2011
January 2012
February 2012
March 2012
April 2012
May 2012
June 2012
July 2012
August 2012
September 2012
October 2012
November 2012
December 2012
January 2013
February 2013
March 2013
April 2013
May 2013
June 2013
July 2013
August 2013
September 2013
October 2013
November 2013
December 2013
April 2014
May 2014
June 2014
July 2014
August 2014
June 2018
July 2022
contact: basketbawful@yahoo.com
Rondo's airballed free throw was the ugliest shot I've seen in a long, long time.
The Magics uniforms are cut weird, almost like a women's tank top.
I said this yesterday, and now I am starting to belive it- the mighty Lakers may well fall to the Rockets. The Rockets seem to have hit their stride at the best possible moment, and they've got Artest to contain Kobe. Looks like the Lakers don't have a good match-up against Yao. Additionally, I would love to see more Yao and Artest joint press interviews. I expect the Lakers to win Game 2 but lose again on the road.
That aside, I agree with you Mr. Bawful, that the refs certainly didn't job the Lakers last night. The Lakers lost because Kobe had one of his stereotypical awful games in which he decided to try to do it all himself. Whether you credit Houston's defense for not allowing Kobe to do it alone, or whether Kobe's shot was just off, it doesn't really matter. Last night's game is a prime example of why Jordan was a better player than Kobe is. Kobe fans get hung up on whether Kobe can do more things that Jordan can as evidence for their Kobe > Jordan debate, but the real evidence that this is wrong is because Kobe is frequently just not very smart out there on the court. In a series in which the Lakers have advantages at a number of different areas, Kobe decided he wanted to instead embrace "the challenge" of going at two guys who defend him better than almost anyone out there. While Kobe might be good enough to win that battle some of the time, the point is that it's just not smart for him to even try, not if he wants the Lakers to win.
So Kobe took 31 shots, 26 of which were jumpshots, and nobody else got going for the Lakers and they lost. It remains to be seen if Kobe will learn from his mistakes from Game 1, or if he will look at it as some failure he needs to overcome by still trying to prove he can score on Battier and Artest. If Kobe goes that route, then the Lakers' chances of getting out of this round are entirely dependent on whether Kobe's jumpshot is falling or not, and LA is too good a team to be relying entirely on that.
In any event, you have to give the Rockets a lot of credit last night, cause they played great at both ends of the floor. That Derek Fisher - Aaron Brooks matchup is real trouble for the Lakers. Shannon Brown did a good job defensively, but Fisher is just way too slow to stay with Brooks. I almost think the Lakers might be better in this series to sit Fisher down and go with Brown and Farmar at PG. Fisher is better suited to stay with bigger, stronger PGs like Deron Williams or Chauncey Billups; but he is just too slow to stay with Brooks, who carved the Lakers up like a Thanksgiving turkey.
Phil Jackson said that the Lakers couldn't really play any worse than they did in Game 1, and for the most part that's true. The Lakers are going to shoot better than 11% from the three-point line. They played right into the Rocket's pace and reverted back to watching Kobe take long, contested jump shots over two defenders in the fourth quarter. And honestly, how often is Ron Artest going to shoot that well from the field?
Even playing as poorly as they did, the Lakers DID have a one point lead in the fourth quarter. The Lakers can play much better than they did in Game 1, I'm not sure the Rockets can. After coasting through the Utah series, hopefully this will be the wake-up call they need to start playing with some semblance of intensity.
It wouldn't be nearly as amazing if he were a bigger guy.
Wasn't that Char-hales Barkfuly guy or whatever his name was 6'4"?? Can't remember too well, but I'm pretty sure he used to play basketball. He was 6-4. He's also on the list. How about some recog-freakin-nition for the round mound?
In fact, when they do T-Mobile commercials, it looks like Wade is taller than Chuck.
I LOVE the cleveland video- I've posted it to my Facebook page. The world must see this. "Don't stop in east Cleveland OR YOU'LL DIE!!" lol
Yeah, sure. And all those calls against the Kings in that WCF were clear fouls...
By the way, am I the only one here who feels extremely happy every time the Lakers lose, specially if Mamba gets pissed off by Battier and Artest??
Steve -- Dude. OLIVER MILLER. I'm just sayin'.
But you do make a good point. Note that Chuck Barkley did 100 blocks-100 steals three times, and that dude seriously was around 6'4", 6'5"...and like Wade, freaky athletic.
Ruben -- Tweeting? Maybe. But if so, I don't think that word means what you think it means...
Lord Kerrance -- Funny you should mention the Stern Button. BadDave called me and said that the SB must be why the Magic got called for that almost-never-whistled eight-second violation near the end of last night's game in Boston.
Oh, and HOU-CLE would make me drown myself in a toilet.
AnacondaHL -- That should be "listed as" with regards to height. And I never said that the statement wasn't (essentially) true, only that when you consider that, say, OLIVER MILLER also once had a 100/100 season...
eileen -- WOW. I totally boned the Rondo airball. Updated!
Yams -- My bad. I too forgot that L.A. reclaimed a brief lead. Shoulda checked up on that. We've obviously discussed Kobe's sometimes errant decision-making, and he seems to take games against Artest and Battier as a personal challenge to his abilities. He'll probably need to get past that in this series. I mean, the Lakers can probably win despite him, they have the talent. But it might be a dogfight otherwise.
I have to say this though- Yao was awesome. I'm not a Yao fan, or I wasn't, until last night. He was obviously in a lot of pain when Kobe went knee-to-knee with him, but he went back in the game and hit a big shot and some free throws to basically win the game for Houston. He never disappeared in that game (as he is wont to do), played big minutes, and Houston ran a lot of offense through him. It also looked like the Lakers were afraid to take it to the hole against him.
It was a gutsy win for Houston, and I never liked them before, but by god, I have been won over, much the same way that the Bulls won me over after the trade, and the way that the Nuggets have won me over in the postseason. For the first time since Hakeem's days, I'm a Rockets fan. That said: Lakers in 6-7. Eileen: I hope you're right, but something tells me that LA has another gear and they're about to find it.
I guess we can stop making fun of Kenny Smith for his prediction now.
As for Boston, I mean, yeah they came back, but only because Orlando got happy jacking up 3's. I have been saying for years that Rashard Lewis is one of the best players in the NBA, but when he's jacking up 3's, he is wasting his talent. Orlando got up big when Rashard was posting up and driving, and they blew the lead when Rashard reverted to the old Rashard and just jacked up 3's early in the shot clock. Honestly, I feel like Orlando should have played Gortat, Pietrus, and Redick along with Hedo and Anthony Johnson when they had that lead. Those guys did a fantastic job at the end of the 3rd to pull away, and the starters ended up blowing the lead and playing the whole game because they got complacent halfway through the 3rd. Bench guys are often better when the team is up big, because any minutes they get are important to them, and they at least try hard. The starters just got lazy with the lead.
BTW, regarding Kenny Smith and his prediction, since he brought it up again last night; considering the guy has been saying for a few months now that nobody in the West is going to beat the Lakers, can he really go back and pretend like he's stuck by his pre-season prediction all along? Before this series started I picked the Lakers to win in 5. If today I say "Oops, I mean Rockets in 6" and then the Lakers win the next 4, can I come back and then say "see, I said it would be Lakers in 5"? I don't think so.
DDC -- Holy wow. Hakeem THE DREAM. That link is gonna make BadDave soil his panties.
On a not related note, I think the Oden should be an adjustment to the Voskhul metric. Oden seems keen at obtaining Voshkuls with 5+ PFs, so any performance like this or this would be known as an Oden-Voskhul of 7:6, or a 9:5 Oden level Voskhul, respectively.
WV: stram. Yay!
Greg Oden lead the league in 2008-09 for most games playing less than a quarter but gaining 5+ PFs! Even 4+ PFs!
The only downside is this metric relies on minutes played, and I don't know how many MP Oden will get in the future. But then again, even if he's Portland's future as a starter, if he continues his blistering foul rate, maybe his MP will be limited to under 12 minutes anyways.
For the most part, Worst of the Night is just that: Who was bad on a particular night. I try not to do too much prognosticating, because making playoff predictions is like asking to be wrong about something. The best anyone has ever been able to say is that they got "a lot" or even (maybe) "most" of their predictions kinda sorta close. Until I perfect my time machine -- which will be powered by Scarlett Johansson's 1.21 gigawatts of hotness -- all we know is what DID happen, not what WILL happen. To that end, I honestly half-expect the Mavericks to win (or at least come close) in Denver tonight.
This helps verify my point that Olajuwon is *the* best center of the modern age (once stats started in earnest - i.e. after Wilt and Russell). The dude simply could do anything except shoot the three consistently. He was literally unstoppable in the paint, could pass with amazing accuracy, dribble like a guard, steal with crazy-quick hands, and was just a defensive stopper and rebounding black hole. Too bad ritual starvation, lockouts and age took that away from him.
I'd also like to argue the Barkley thing. He may be 6'4", but he was always listed in programs as 6'9". Bawful and I used to laugh about that when they showed the lineup stats at the beginning of the game.
Not only inspiring their own team but perplexing and confounding the opposing team.
something along the lines of "Resur-injury" or Miracle-something or the other.
Caleb Smith: Must resist...obvious penis joke...
But yeah, most NBA players have their heights inflated by 1-2 inches minimum. It mostly started in college I think with schools wanting their prospects to look good. Barkley was joking the other day that Beasley lost 3 inches when he went to the NBA. But not really, because the NBA goes along with it as well because they want to seem like a league of genetic mutants so they still list him as 6'10" even though he was measured in a combine at 6'7".
Kobe and Jordan aren't 6'6", Kobe admitted his wife measured him at 6'4".
AI is 6'0" in heels.
I grimace every time Odom, Big Ben and Varejao are referred to as "7 footers" by announcers. Big Ben is barely bigger than LeBron.
Hakeem wasn't one either.
Sometimes it doesn't matter though because guys have ridiculous wingspans + standing reach so you can say they play "like" a 7 footer. Sure D-Wade is a combo guard size but who cares? He has Jerry West arms. Bynum has about the same standing reach as Yao, who is half a foot taller, plus Bynum has a larger vertical, so in some ways you could say Yao plays shorter than he is (or Bynum plays like a 7'6" guy). But then again Yao's t-rex arms are a running gag.
Sir, please don't ever again in life refer to Rondo as "being on fire" as I am sure ther is some rule somewhere in the basketball universe, written or unwritten, that excludes successful layups from counting towards being one being "hot".
JAMES BROWN!!
Get UP-AH!! (get on up!) Stay on the SCENE! Like a sex-ah ma-CHINE!!
So maybe we call this "the Cape Routine" or "Going James Brown"? Just a suggestion...
For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, here is an excerpt from the Wikipedia page- I couldn't find any decent video of this, but it was a cornerstone of Brown's act, and fits perfectly with what a lot of these athletes do- a dramatic exit and even more dramatic entrance when they're not hurt at all.
Cape routine
"A trademark feature of Brown's stage shows, usually during the song "Please, Please, Please", involved Brown dropping to his knees while clutching the microphone stand in his hands, prompting the show's MC to come out, drape a cape over Brown's shoulders and escort him off the stage after he had worked himself to exhaustion during his performance. As Brown was escorted off the stage by the MC, Brown's vocal group, The Famous Flames, continued singing the background vocals "Please, please don't go-oh-oh".[40] Brown then shook off the cape and staggered back to the microphone to perform an encore. This act was often repeated several times in succession. The Alan Parker film The Commitments features the would-be Dublin soul musicians watching the act on video for inspiration.
Brown's cape routine was inspired by a similar routine used by the professional wrestler Gorgeous George.[38][41]"
I know you're in a hurry to bury the Lakers and are clearly real excited that they lost Game 1, but this series is one game from being all even. Don't read too much into one game, especially when I'm sure most experts would tell you they still expect the Lakers to win the series. If you're this excited over one Laker loss, odds are you're going to be hugely disappointed and/or furious if the Lakers do advance. Better to be cautiously optimistic, IMO.
BadDave - I'll go along with anointing Hakeem the greatest center of the modern age if the modern age doesn't include Kareem. You could make a strong case for Kareem being the greatest center of any age. Hell, you could even make the case for Kareem being the greatest player of all time (though personally I'd rank him second behind Jordan). But since Hakeem came into the league, or at least since his second season, I think he's probably been overall the best center the NBA has seen.
Come on, we know Kareem slacked on defense, didn't run down the court, and didn't even try sometimes, except during the playoffs.lol
chris -- Your post goes up tomorrow!
stephanie g -- See the most current post. Now...who loves ya baby?
Cortez -- "Sir, please don't ever again in life refer to Rondo as 'being on fire' as I am sure ther is some rule somewhere in the basketball universe, written or unwritten, that excludes successful layups from counting towards being one being 'hot.'"
Hot jumpshooting is pretty relative. And, as I mentioned, he was 4-for-7 from three in Games 1 through 5. He knocked down six jumpers in the first game, canned three in the second and third, admittedly stunk it up from the outside in the fourth, and went 5-for-11 in the fifth. And while his outside shooting percentage was only around 40 percent, that's a pretty standard FGP for decent outside shooters. And as somebody who has watched most games Rondo has played and expected him to knock down MAYBE six or seven jumpshots in the series, his early shooting performance was stunning. The Bulls certainly didn't expect him to hit any jumpers, considering that not once did his defender ever fight through a screen.
Just look at the guy when he's standing next to the likes of Perkins, Gasol, Odom, and others. That's a really tall dude.
In reality, I think Kobe is more like 6-8 in shoes.
He came into the league out of high school listed at 6-6. No doubt he grew some as he entered his twenties (just like LeBron, who now stands at least 6-9).
So yeah...no thanks. It doesn't matter how tall a player may or may not be, really. But for Kobe specifically:
http://www.ocregister.com/sports/kobe-bryant-make-1956078-a-wish
Upon meeting Bryant two Fridays ago, O'Neal Mitchell of Tenaha, Texas, surmised that Bryant wasn't as tall as advertised. Bryant, listed at 6-foot-7 when he entered the NBA and now listed at 6-6 (without the Afro, apparently), came clean with a grin: "I'm probably 6-5 in sneaks."
Bryant's wife, Vanessa, was there and had prodded him by saying she suspected the same thing — and measured her husband at home one day at 6-4 3/4
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/24/sports/basketball/24cheer.html?_r=2&n=Top/Reference/Times%20Topics/People/B/Bryant,%20Kobe&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin&oref=slogin
Daniel said: “Hey, Kobe, you’re tall.”
Bryant, still holding Daniel, told him: “Everyone thinks I’m 6 feet 7 inches tall. But just between you and me, I’m really 6-4.”
--GCII
Wade measured in at 6-4 at the draft combine, so we know his true height. Kobe clearly has several inches on him.
He looks 6-5 or 6-6, if Wade is really 6-4.
Whatever, like you said the discussion is mostly academic since these guys play bigger than their listed heights anyway.
The most egregious example of this that I can remember of is the one, the only, Jason Collins. When Mutombo was his teammate on the Nets, Mutombo said that Collins was nowhere near the 7'0" height he was listed at. And Collins admitted it himself - with his ankle brace, two pairs of thick socks, and his sneakers, he was maybe 6'11. Without all that crap, he was only 6'8" or so.
The two examples I can think of somebody downgrading their height is Shaq and KG. Garnett is at least a couple of inches taller than his listed 6'11", which makes him about 7'1". And if you've ever seen pictures of Shaq and Garnett standing side-by-side, you'll notice Shaq is about an inch taller than Garnett - that makes him 7'2" or taller.
Yams - I think we might have a case of comparison-error here. Lifetime achievement or accomplishment? I'll give it to Lou. One year snapshot of who's better? My boy from Phi Slamma Jamma would have eaten Alcindor alive.
Seriously - AK Dave hit part of it on the head. Lou was just lazy. Even when he hustled he didn't do it all game, even in big games. On defense he was solid, but not spectacular, especially for his size. He had sssllllooooowww footwork and drop-steps and turn-arounds usually left Lou lurching about 2 seconds behind. Rebounding? Akeem would have plabsted Lou. He was a master of position and getting his elbows up. Most of all, is all of the other things that Olajuwon did that really are considered "intangibles" for centers. Crazy quick hands. Awesome passes. Hustle on picks and cuts to the basket. Medium to long range shooting. And best of all, a smile to put Gilderoy Lockhart to shame.
No arguments about career performance though. Ol' Lou was a crazy scorer, and knew how to use his height to his advantage. He *could* play amazing ball when he felt like it, and he was aided by having a consistently solid (if not amazing) team around him for most of his many years on court.
I have a job and kids, so I'll rely on one of our resident stat geeks to prove my point about best-year performance if they want. Oh, and Hakeem wasn't a 7 footer even in the listings - he was always 6'11". But he'll always be My Giant at heart. <3
You don't really believe this stuff could give you three inches of height, do you?
What is he wearing? Stripper platforms?
"Hot jumpshooting is pretty relative."
You got me there. He was "hot" relative to being Rondo.
That's a six season average, and keep in mind that Kareem went on to win the MVP award two more times after those years (he won it 4 times in those seasons). But if you compare what Kareem averaged in those seasons to any stats Hakeem ever put up, it isn't close. Hakeem only averaged over 27 ppg twice, in 93-94 and 94-95, when he averaged 27.3 ppg and 27.8 ppg, respectively. Hakeem only secured more than 14 rebounds per game in one season, in 89-90 when he got exactly 14.0 rpg. Hakeem dished out more than 3.5 assists per game in 4 separate seasons, but never more than 3.6 per game, which he did twice, in 93-94 and 95-96. Hakeem only shot better than 53% from the field for a season once, and he did it in his rookie year. You could make the case that Hakeem was a better defender, as he recorded more than 2 steals per game in five separate seasons and he recorded more than 4 blocks per game in three separate seasons; but like I said, they didn't keep those stats for the first 4 years of Kareem's career, which were some of Kareem's most dominant and during which he won two MVP awards.
So once again I ask you: what is this one season that Hakeem had which would have "eaten Alcindor alive"?
Kareem's dominance, especially during his first 10 years or so, I think often gets overshadowed by his longevity, which is equally impressive; but people really should go look at what Kareem did in his prime to see just how good he was. I think people gloss over his record-setting 6 MVP awards, chalking that up to him just playing for such a long time, but they fail to realize he won all 6 of those in his first 11 years in the NBA; so if he'd retired after the championship season in 1980 he'd have finished with one of the most incredible individual careers anyone's seen in the NBA, with 2 championships and 6 MVP awards. That he then went on and played for 9 more years and was a part of 4 more championship teams only makes his career more impressive. There's a reason that he finished in the top 5 voting for the MVP award an incredible 15 times. That's why I think he's the only player who really deserves to be in the conversation with Jordan for Greatest Player Ever.
I'm not stat geeky enough to do some kind of statistical comparison that would take pace and league averages into consideration, but stats from the run-and-gun 70s should not be compared one-to-one against the slow-it-down, grind-it-out 90s. That's pretty unfair.
That was why my initial link above on Kareem (here it is again) is one of the best ways to compare players across different eras, because it's just comparing how they fared in MVP voting, which of course is always relative to how good a player is when compared to everyone around them. Like I said, not only did Kareem with 6 MVPs in a 10-season span (Hakeem only won 1 in his career), but Kareem also finished in the top 5 in MVP voting an astounding 15 times in his 20 year career. Hakeem only finished in the top 5 in MVP voting 6 times in his 18 year career. By comparison Michael Jordan was in the top 5 in voting 10 times in his 15 year career.
There are also "advanced stats" you can use, like comparing Win Shares (which couldn't be tracked for Kareem till the 73-74 season due to blocks/steals not being recorded), but Kareem comes out better there as well. In fact, if you compare Win Shares, it shows that Shaq had a couple years that were better than any Hakeem had (specifically his one MVP year in 1999-2000), so if you just want to go by one-season snapshots you might could say that Shaq was the best post-Kareem center. But since I've long thought Shaq was a guy who did so little with so much (that one season notwithstanding) and because Shaq was so one-dimensional, it's not even a question to me to say that Hakeem is the best post-Kareem center. But compared to Kareem, Hakeem just does not measure up. Sorry. The only centers in that discussion are Wilt and Russell, and I'd personally put Kareem ahead of either of them.
I think you're missing the point that Basketbawful made about comparing eras:
Of COURSE Jabbar was top-5 in MVP voting 15 times or whatever- he played in an era where he was bigger and a better athlete than most of the people around him, and teams were reluctant to game-plan for him specifically with double-teams. So basing your conclusion (that Jabbar was better than Olajuwan) on a comparison to the players around Kareem is not a very convincing argument.
Personally, I don't think it's *possible* to compare players from different decades/eras. The league evolves constantly and rule changes, along with increasing depth/competition, change the way a player is perceived, and change the TYPE of player that can flourish in the league AT THAT TIME. 15 years ago, a Steve Nash would have been smacked around by the Knicks and Bulls (before the hand-check rule), but in today's NBA, his style wins the day.
Kareem was awesome, and I wish he and Bruce Lee had fought for reals- that would be the raddest fight ever.
But Olajuwan will always be my favorite, too, and for 2 years, he had MJ status in the NBA- I can't name another center who can say that.
First off, I don't trust MVP voting, which usually is a combination of "Who's on the best team?" and "Who's the most popular?" Also, five of Kareem's MVPs were awarded during an era in which MVP was decided by player voting. It's really no surprise that during the 1970s players would vote repeatedly for the guy with the best stats.
(Also note that during Kareem's final MVP season, 1979-80, the Lakers won the championship in Game 6 on the road without him. Kinda puts a dint in the whole notion of "Most Valuable," doesn't it?)
So not only does the difference in the WAY that the MVP was awarded make such comparisons spurious at best, it also fails to consider that Kareem stood alone as the most dominant player of his day, whereas Hakeem was at his best in an era of Magic, Bird, Jordan, Barkley, et al...players who not only were statistically dominant AND happened to be on the best teams, but also were wildly popular with fans. And those sportswriters who were voting, obviously, are fans, despite their claims of objectivity.
I'm also not sure that I necessarily trust Win Shares, because I beleive there are way too many variables in wins and losses to effectively measure the percentage of a win that a player is responsible for.
Anyway, I'm really not comfortable judging this because other than a small handful of "Greatest Games" and highlight videos, I didn't get to watch Kareem during the 70s, whereas I watched Hakeem's entire career. I will say that for the 50 percent of Kareem's career that I did see, it seemed to me that Hakeem was, consistently, a better two-way player than Kareem. On the other hand, Kareem's body of work pretty much speaks for itself. (Although Hakeem never got to play with Oscar Robertson or Magic Johnson. The best he ever had was a slightly past their primes Clyde Drexler, Scottie Pippen and Charles Barkley.)
You again changed my point. I only argued that Kareem was better in his one or two years of his prime. You argued that who's better over time. I won't argue that. If I were building a team to be successful for generations, Gom Jabbar is my man. But for any one year, I take Olajuwon. So, keep in mind the question when you debate it.
So I went ahead and did the statistical analysis. And hey - I was hytarsoned and suprised:
I took the 76-77 year for Jabbar and the 88-89 year for Hakeem. Jabbar was better in most categories: he was 1.5 pts/gm better, a 5% better shooter, and had 2 APG more than my boy.
Hakeem had 1.5 more SPG, 67 more fouls (probably because he played defense), and 1.5 more FTA per game. The other stats were really all a wash (rebounding overall was equal, with Hakeem being better on the offensive boards). Turnovers weren't tracked then for Jabbar - bummer.
So, I'll eat a little crow on a bit of this. However, just like "eating alive", I contend with your "does not measure up" bit. Note the real differences in those stats are piddly, even if they are the most significant differences. They do indeed measure up.
Bawful already made my next point, so +1. I still think that in a one-year span, Olajuwon was more talented in all facets of the game, and a bigger factor in the team's success. For one year, I'll take him.
So by all that criteria, along with the fact that Kareem's stats and longevity blow Hakeem's away, combined with three times as many championships, etc, etc, etc, how can you possibly argue that Hakeem was a better center? I mean really, rather than just trying to deflate the mountain of evidence in favor of Kareem being the hands down better center, can you offer up anything to support the stance that Hakeem was superior? Telling me that Kareem in his mid to late 30s didn't look as good as Hakeem in his prime is suspicious at best. We may not have gotten the chance to watch Kareem in his prime, but it seems like the general consensus of the people who did see him (and who played against him) thought he was the most dominant force in the game for a solid decade.
BTW, Mr. Bawful, your argument that the Lakers winning the 1980 title w/o Kareem there for Game 6 somehow disputes his value to the team might hold water if it wasn't for the fact that the team also had Magic Johnson, and that Magic had one of the greatest games by anyone in playoff history in that Game 6. Maybe Kareem's importance to the Lakers was overemphasized a bit because people weren't ready to recognize Magic's greatness when he was just a rookie, but do you really think Kareem missing one game somehow means he wasn't the team's most valuable player? I don't think so, and that's doubly true when the team won the game on the strength of such an amazing performance by one of the game's all time 5 best players.
I'm not "going out of my way" to refute anything, per se. I just don't happen to agree with some of the proofs you're offering. You never watched Kareem play during his best years and you basically used stats (which are spurious because they don't take into account difference in eras), the results of MVP voting (which don't even match in method, since players voted Kareem to 5 of his MVPs while media members voted for MVP during Hakeem's career), and a statistical measure (Win Shares) that may be becoming somewhat accepted among stat geeks but which I seriously question. (I mean, seriously, we can accurately decide upon the percentage credit a player earns for a win? Really?!)
To be frank, I think that measuring Kareem's best versus Hakeem's best would absolutely require not only seeing both players perform during their primes but having a solid sense for how basketball was played and the relative ability of their competition while they played.
"First of all, Kareem didn't play in 'an era' he played in several."
Correction: He played in two.
"Second, Kareem didn't win most of those MVPs while playing alongside Oscar or Magic (at least not while Oscar was in his prime)."
Correction (or semi-correction): Kareem won three of his MVPs while playing with Oscar (who, while not in his prime, was nonetheless widely considered one of the best players in the league right up until his retirement) and his last while playing with Magic (who was a rookie). I would call four out of six "most."
"Third, Kareem was not on the league's best team for most of the 70s, and in fact spent much of the 70s on Bucks and Lakers teams that were near the bottom of the league."
Tying this into your "MVP proof," Kareem won MVPs in 1971, 1972, 1974, 1976, 1977, and 1980. His teams' records in those years were 66-16, 63-19, 59-23, 40-42, 53-29 and 60-22. Oh, and the Bucks had a 60-win season in 1973 when Dave Cowens edged him out in MVP voting because the Celtics won 68 games. Yes, he spent a few years on bad teams (sans Oscar and Magic), but to make the claim that he spent "much of the 70s" on bad teams when, in fact, he enjoyed THREE 60-win seasons, a 59-win season and a 53-win season during that decade (not to mention on another 60-win team in 1979-80)strains credulity a bit, don't you think?
"Fourth, I'm not talking just about MVP awards, but how the players finished in the voting (in the top 5 vote getters). While the person who wins the award may be slanted by popularity or stats or how their team did, generally the top 5 vote getters are agreed upon as deserving those votes. So while you can say that the voting process changed or that at different times there was another more dominant player out there (Jordan) who took away potential trophies, the fact remains that Hakeem only finished in the top 5 vote getters for MVP one third of the years he played in the league, while Kareem did it three-fourths of the years he was in the NBA."
Take a few seconds and consider Kareem's competition for MVP in the 1970s. Seriously. Who was he competing against? Now look at the many MVP candidates Hakeem had to go against during his years: Bird, Magic, Michael, Barkley, Malone, Drexler, Ewing, etc. It sure seems to this observer that Hakeem had more varied and stronger competition than Kareem.
"So by all that criteria, along with the fact that Kareem's stats and longevity blow Hakeem's away, combined with three times as many championships, etc, etc, etc, how can you possibly argue that Hakeem was a better center?"
I feel like you've gone all Hollinger on me Yams. First off, I wasn't inviting a debate. I've stated that four times now. I simply disagreed that dumping a bunch of numbers on the argument (as you're doing) is the way to go. I watched a LOT of Kareem in the 80s, and I've gobbled up all the Kareem from the 70s I've been able to get my hands on. I was a huge Hakeem fan in the 80s and 90s. I'm telling you from my own personal observations that, to me, Hakeem was a superior two-way player...based only on the basketball I saw them play.
"BTW, Mr. Bawful, your argument that the Lakers winning the 1980 title w/o Kareem there for Game 6 somehow disputes his value to the team might hold water if it wasn't for the fact that the team also had Magic Johnson, and that Magic had one of the greatest games by anyone in playoff history in that Game 6."
What does that dispute, Yams? I mean, wasn't my claim that I don't trust MVP voting? And I felt that was supported by the fact that the Lakers lost the league's Most Valuable Players...and had a rookie step in, take his place, and win a championship in enemy territory. One would think that regardless of a rookie sensation, losing the league's "MOST VALUABLE" Player would cripple a team in a do-or-die playoff game against a team that had gone 35-7 at home during the regular season. But the fact that they could still win in that situation without him makes me raise an eyebrow at that particluar MVP.
"I took the 76-77 year for Jabbar and the 88-89 year for Hakeem. Jabbar was better in most categories: he was 1.5 pts/gm better, a 5% better shooter, and had 2 APG more than my boy."Way to take what you feel is Hakeem's best season and avoid comparing it to one of the six seasons I chose above. How bout we compare that season from Hakeem to what Kareem did in 1971-72, just for kicks:
Hakeem in 88-89:24.8 ppg, 13.5 rpg, 1.8 apg. 2.6 spg, 3.4 bpg, .508 FG%
Kareem in 71-72:34.8 ppg, 16.6 rpg, 4.6 apg, .574 FG% - They didn't keep blocks and steals stats back then, but you could throw in his numbers from the first year they did and you'll get 1.4 spg & 3.5 bpg
So I ask you, is Hakeem recording 1.2 steals per game more than Kareem did more impressive than Kareem getting 10 more points per game, 3.1 more rebounds per game, 2.8 more assists per game. .1 more blocks per game while also shooting 6.6% better from the field? Still think the differences there are "piddly"?
Having hopefully put that silly argument to rest, I'd like to close with this absurd statement: "I still believe after watching games, Hakeem was so much more capable of being unstoppable during his prime than Jabbar." Make no mistake, Kareem's skyhook was the most unstoppable shot in NBA history, simply because there was no way to defend it. Because of that shot Kareem was arguably more unstoppable well past his prime than Hakeem ever was any any point in his career. This is not to take anything away from Hakeem, who was a truly great player and was probably the 4th or 5th best center in NBA history; but comparing him to Kareem is one of the few guys where he'll come out on the short end of the comparison.
Really it doesn't matter if you agree or not. You're in a very, very small minority here vis a vis the basketball world, and you have yet to offer any evidence to support what you're saying. But it's your right to be stubbornly wrong if you so choose :)
"So I ask you, is Hakeem recording 1.2 steals per game more than Kareem did more impressive than Kareem getting 10 more points per game, 3.1 more rebounds per game, 2.8 more assists per game. .1 more blocks per game while also shooting 6.6% better from the field? Still think the differences there are 'piddly'?"
Again, you fail to take pace of game into account. In 1971-72, teams averaged 95.5 shots per game, attempted 31.5 free throws per game, and grabbed 51.1 rebounds per game. Compare that to the 1988-89 numbers of 88.9, 28.8 and 43.9...and that should at least partially account for Kareem's higher stats. I'm just saying, if you're going to use numbers for proof, please provide the proper perspective.
If you really believe that my personal feelings have rendered me incapable of intelligent discussion, than I really don't have anything else to say on this subject, or any other. Seriously, that's as offensive and insulting to me as it is for you when you get lumped in with typical Laker fans.
Hakeem Career Rebound %: 17.25
Kareem Career Rebound %: 15.66
Ideally, we should take a look at Rebound Rate (preferably regressed), which is the % difference of rebounds from when the player is on/off the court but I don't know where to find the historical data of that (if it even exists).
Hakeem Career Block %: 5.39
Kareem Career Block %: 3.80
To me, I always felt that Kareem was the most unstoppable scorer, while Hakeem was the better defensive player.
Is anyone else even reading this anymore?
How bout this: you tell me the best way to compare players from the 70s to the 80s/90s and then we'll use that to see how Kareem and Hakeem stack up, cause honestly I don't know what else to point to. Championships, MVP awards, voting in MVP awards, stats, longevity. What else is there? Kareem did make 11 1st or 2nd All Defensive teams, so he wasn't exactly a slouch on defense (Hakeem made 9, FWIW). All you've offered me is your subjective opinion based on watching one guy in his prime and another one who was past it. And being that it is subjective, you don't think your biases could have played a part? I don't think that your personal feelings have rendered you incapable of an intelligent discussion on this matter, but since your whole argument is based on your perceptions of watching a guy you loved and a guy you hated play, isn't it just possible that clouded your perceptions of both players while you were watching them and now you just remember how you felt about each?
The games were different, the paces were different, the league was different. Fine. I'm just going by what evidence there is combined with what seems to be the overwhelming opinion on the matter, in that Hakeem is generally thought of as battling Shaq and Mikan for the mantle of best center who wasn't Wilt, Russell or Kareem.
Look, I don't know what other evidence to offer to you, and you're not giving me anything I can refute either, so I don't know where else we can go with this. Do you?
Kareem made bigger changes to his name than Hakeem did. That has to factor in somewhere.
Bawful is much more willing to argue with great data in NBA live. However, I'll just say this. One reason that skyhook is literally extinct now is that anyone that reliably used that shot would be double-teamed to death from a guard from behind. That's why post players have to use baby hooks that start from their midriff with both hands instead of sweeping the ball outside where some guard can swipe at you with impunity, and not get called in today's day and age.
Hell, my argument for best center and player of all time is and always will be Russell. One reason - all of those rings are hard to argue against.
"Is anyone reading this anymore?"
I AM! This is awesome- like Tyson/Holyfield awesome. And it's getting dirty (the Hollinger reference was a low-blow)! Keep it up guys!!
You couldn't ever know how Kareem would have adjusted to tougher competition or double teams.
An argument about majority thinking the same way is just stupid. Far too many people is easily convinced by mass media one way or another without a thought.