nene face
Welcome to Nene's poster, Timmy. Sad Duncan Face.

The Generals-Nyets game: In THIS COR-NAH, coming in with AN 0-12 ROAD RECORD: The WASHINGTON...GEN-UH-RALS! And in the OTHER COR-NAH, weighing in with AN EIGHT-GAME LOSING STREAK: The hometown NEW...JERSEY...NYETS!

Okay, okay. It wasn't exactly a heavyweight slugfest. It was more like two eight-year-old girls slap-fighting over a Bratz doll. Actually, no. That would be far more entertaining than what went on in the Prudential Center last night.

New Jersey's basketball incompetence (40 percent shooting -- including 2-for-8 from downtown -- plus 21 turnovers) was narrowly outmatched Washington's spectacular suckitude (39 percent shooting with 21 turnovers).

In the end, this monstrosity was decided at the charity stripe, where the home team had a 47-28 advantage in free throw attempts. And it's a good thing, too, considering they bricked 12 of 'em.

Of course, the Generals were minus John Wall and Andray Blatche. And Devin Harris showed off his mad leadership skillz by calling a team meeting to let his fellow Nyet know that, if they lost this game, they might not win a game this month.

Said Devin Harris: "This was one we had to have. If I'm going to be the guy here, then it's all about being aggressive and making things happen. ... It's not the way we wanted to win. We had to scratch and claw for everything. We have to be able to get it any way we can. This is the way we have to play."

Again: 40 percent shooting and 21 turnovers. And this is the way you guys have to play, Devin?No wonder your team is now 52-129 -- almost a full NBA season below .500 -- since you said "We knew we were going to be a playoff team" back in December of 2008.

Screamed Nyets coach Avery Johnson: "HE HAD A LITTLE TEAM MEETING WITH THE GUYS AND THE GUYS RESPONDED. DEVIN TOOK CHARGE ON BOTH ENDS OF THE FLOOR FOR US. WE NEED DEVIN TO PLAY LIKE THIS. WE NEED DEVIN TO TAKE SHOTS."

Let's see now. Devin finished 7-for-25 from the field, 1-for-5 from downtown and 14-for-17 from the line. Oh, don't worry, Avery. He'll take shots. He'll definitely take shots.

The Atlanta Hawks: As I like to say, NBA teams don't get many breaks, but the Dirty Birds got a poopload of them last night. The Celtics had an entire lineup of dudes sitting this one out -- Rajon Rondo (sprained ankle), Shaq (sore right calf), Jermaine O'Neal (sore left knee), Delonte West (right wrist surgery) -- plus Von Wafer left the game after only two minutes of PT due to a sore back.

Not only that, the Celtics were coming off a last-second win against the Knicks in New York the night before. Injured, using a lineup filled with old guys, and starting Turkish Semih Erden who finished with zero rebounds in 24 minutes. Doc Rivers had to dust off Avery Bradley and Luke Harangody for some first half action. Luke Harangody.

luke
Uhm, that's now how you do it, Luke.

Hell, the Hawks even had a 24-11 advantage in free throw attempts. In Boston.

No matter. The Celts ran away with it in the fourth and won 102-90. It was their 12th straight win. And looking at their next two games -- at home against the Pacers and Sixers -- that streak could make it to 14. And by the way, if you're wondering why Doc Rivers is resting Shaq, look no further than Boston's Christmas day matchup with the Magic in Orlando. I have a feeling The Big Gimpy will play in that one.

Celtics fans: Celebrate!


Atlanta -- who, in all fairness, had to play without Joe Johnson and Jamal Crawford -- couldn't hold onto the ball (18 turnovers) or stop the Celtics from scoring. Boston shot 53 percent as a team. Kevin Garnett continued to proove he ain't dead yet by finishing with 17 points (8-for-10) and 14 rebounds. Not bad on the second night of back-to-backs. Paul Pierce dished out 10 assists in his temporary role as point forward. Ray Allen went 7-for-13 for his 18 points. Big Baby had a double-double (18 points and 10 boards). Even little Nate Robinson chipped in with 14 points. On 15 shots. But still.

Said Josh Smith: "I'm not making excuses, but we still had two of our main scorers out also."

Smith -- who kinda-sorta becomes option numero uno with Johnson and Crawford out -- finished with one point on 0-for-8 shooting. Those numbers are a bit off his season averages of 16 points on 48 percent shooting. Speaking of which...

Josh Smith, worst player of the night: See above.

Kevin Garnett, quote machine: "What are you going to do? Quit? Put your clothes on and go home? That's not what we do here."

The Denver Nuggets: Talk about a rough ending for Denver.


I have a feeling the Nuggets were seeing Manu Ginobili in their dreams last night. And in those dreams, he'll still be moving.

Said Carmelo Anthony: "No, obviously what I think and what they called are two different things. I thought I made a great play. I took advantage of how Richard (Jefferson) was guarding, attacked. I don't think I could've got a better look at it than that. It's tough, you know, just going out there playing as hard as we played out there and to lose the game on something like that.”

More angst from the AP recap:

Nuggets coach George Karl was crestfallen over the call.

"It's a play that I think goes either way a lot," Karl said. "It seemed like the referees, they like to hit us with tough calls. It was a tough call. Good play. Good basketball. Melo made a great play. It's close. I've seen it called both ways."

But at the buzzer?

Told that TV analyst Scott Hastings said he hadn't seen that in his nearly three decades watching NBA basketball, Karl said, "I'd probably agree with Scott."
Karl wasn't done there, though. From NBA FanHouse:

"Refereeing is hard to understand sometimes," said Karl, who at least said his injury-riddled team could get big man Kenyon Martin back next week from offseason knee surgery and should have big man Chris Andersen return from a back injury. "There are so many things that, it's just strange. Some of the things, it's just strange sometimes. Nene I think is the probably No. 1 guy in this league (that doesn't get respect from the officials, in Karl's view). He got three touch fouls at the beginning of the third quarter. He had three fouls called on him. One that took away a dunk."

The three fouls all were called between the 10:19 and the 9:56 mark of the third quarter.

"If we show them on film, they don't exist," Karl said. "We have films that we send into the league office that (fouls) don't exist. And here's a guy that's close to an All-Star, and he just doesn't get a lot of respect. I think it affects you. We tell them to fight through it, forget it, refereeing will come back and all that stuff. It just sometimes seems that we don't get the whistles sometimes I think we earn by how hard we're playing and how well we're playing."
Look, I understand Karl's frustration. First, NBA superstars usually get the benefit of close calls. Second, officials typically "let the players decide things" at the end of games. So the outcome flies in the face of conventional wisdom.

Haywoode Workman was the official who made the call. Woody is a former NBA player -- a former Pacer thank you very much -- and he was a tough customer back in the day. And as much as I hate to say it, as much as I have (historically speaking) hated Ginobili's flopping ways, I think Workman got it right. Yeah, Manu was still moving a teeny, tiny bit, but he was about as set as most guys are when they take a charge. It was certainly a close call. But probably the right one.

Kenny And Charles: Basketbawful reader JR e-mailed me the following passionate rant:

After Spurs-Nuggets last night, Kenny Smith and Charles Barkley went completely off the reservation. Manu Ginobili's latest heroics prompted Barkley to question whether Manu is "the best foreign player ever." Kenny then argued that either Dirk Nowitzki or the late Drazen Petrovic should be ranked above Manu.

Before the two really got started, it took Ernie Johnson to bring up the name Hakeem Olajuwon. And Charles and Kenny completely ignored it and went on debating whether Drazen Petrovic was better than Manu. Two former teammates of the Dream. Kenny Smith has two freaking championship rings BECAUSE OF OLAJUWON and they don't even acknowledge him in their little debate. Ernie might as well have nominated Frederic Weis.

As Charles Barkley himself would have said, Hakeem must be rolling over in his grave.
Brandon Roy: ESPN's Chris Broussard provided the full scoop on Roy's feelings about his too-slow backcourt mate Andre Miller:

It's no secret that playing alongside Andre Miller frustrates Brandon Roy. Miller keeps Roy from handling the ball as much as he wants and doesn’t spread the floor enough for Roy’s liking.

After Monday's loss to Memphis, Roy all but blamed his struggles this season on Miller, saying "I wasn't that slow until you put a guy who is kind of slow next to me. I've always been kind of slow. Not to be controversial at all, but I was slow my rookie year, and now it's ..."

Roy, who's lacked the explosiveness we've seen from him in the past, apologized for his comments two days later, but his frustration remains -- and Wednesday's four-point performance in another L at Dallas certainly didn’t improve his mindset.

But is Roy frustrated enough to leave Portland?

Depends on who you ask.

One plugged-in person with knowledge of Portland's inner workings told me Roy spoke with Blazers management less than two weeks ago about the need for Miller and him to part ways. While Roy did not issue a trade demand or request, I’m told he said something to this effect:

This is not going to work, so you should trade one of us. Whether it's him or whether it's me, somebody needs to be traded because this is not going to work.
And Chris Broussard also points out that Roy is in the first-year of a five-year, $82.3 million contract extension...and sources say his knees are not insured.

Shit.

Now, Portland general manager Rich Cho and Roy's agent Bob Myers both denied that Roy demanded some kind of move. But they were going to do that no matter what. Regardless, the Frail Blazers are stuck in an ugly situation. Greg Oden has played a total of 82 games since he was drafted back in 2007. They're stuck with Roy's bum knees and increasingly surly attitude.

Chris's Lacktion Report:

Generals-Nyets: Alonzo Gee gathered one foul in 4:49 for a +1 suck differential, while fellow Washingtonian Hamady N'Diaye countered a free throw in 2:49 with two fouls and a giveaway for a 3:1 Voskuhl.

Hawks-Celtics: Jason Collins earned a board and steal in 14:50 as Atlanta's starting center, but fouled twice for a 2:1 Voskuhl.

Meanwhile, Von Wafer has become a regular parade piece for a post-game party, fouling once in 2:06 for a +1.

Spurs-Nuggets: Ime Udoka collected fire flowers and gold coins in just 6 seconds to give Gregg Popovich a link to the 8-bit world with a Super Mario!

Labels: , , ,

117 Comments:
Anonymous Stockton said...
Which team, in their right mind would take Roy? Isiah is not a GM anymore, right?

I saw the Nugs-Spurs highlights, and need to point 2 things:
1) the new policy regarding calls do not apply to Timmy, who waived and talked to refs a few times (one of them on that poster by Nene)
2) in the first half Carmelo dunked over a steady guy in the paint, and got a plus 1...

Anonymous The Other Chris said...
Certainly looked like a charge to me, relative to how charges are typically called in the NBA.. Manu beat him to the spot and was set. Respect to the referee for having the balls to make such a call as the clock expired instead of swallowing his whistle and "letting them play" - ie, letting a superstar get away with whatever he wants.

Brandon Roy's passive-aggressive prima donna act is already grating after a third of the season.. the next five years should be "fun". Man oh man are the Frail Blazers f'ed. Horribly, horribly unlucky. Class franchise, couldn't happen to nicer people.

I guess the people that stayed away from drafting Roy because of his knees are smarter than we are?

Anonymous Anonymous said...
I wonder if Roy is quickly entering the stage that Steve Francis was in late in his career. Not really that old, still a big name, starts getting traded for other bad contracts, new team hails his coming as important based on his big name, doesn't ultimately do much due to physical limitations, seems to be the only guy on the planet that doesn't realize he isn't good any more, fades away.

Blogger chris said...
Years from now, when Devin Harris is immortalized in some small town's sports hall of fame (certainly NOT a true national hall of fame, mind you)...

I hope that "52-129" or whatever figure he finishes his Nyets career with gets etched on the plaque.

Blogger chris said...
And Chris Broussard also points out that Roy is in the first-year of a five-year, $82.3 million contract extension...and sources say his knees are not insured.


That's what gets me. Shouldn't Portland know what the fresh Northwestern air does to the tendons and joints of anyone putting on a Frail Blazer uniform? I mean, this has been going on since Bill Walton after all...

Blogger Josh said...
Genuine question: I know both feet have to be on the floor when taking a charge, but does that mean the whole foot has to be planted? I've seen many an initial charge changed to a block because the defender's feet were still moving. Does that include moving up onto tip toes?

In watching the replay of Melo's "charge" on TV, all of the angles I saw it at showed me that Manu was rising up to meet Melo and that at least one of his feet was on tip toes. I noticed it the very first replay and in every replay after, except the one from much further away, obviously. Ginobli was standing on his toes to take the "charge" and at least his left heel was not planted whatsoever in any of the shots I saw.

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?categoryId=2459789&id=5928948

Watch his left heel. Not on the ground. Is it semantics to say that at least one of his feet was moving since he was clearly rising up on his toes? Does that make any difference at all?

If tip toes doesn't count as moving, it's clearly a charge and the Nuggets lose.

Of course this is ignoring the whole "calls that decide games should never be made" argument.

Blogger Basketbawful said...

Anonymous The Other Chris said...
Is it semantics to say that at least one of his feet was moving since he was clearly rising up on his toes? Does that make any difference at all?

Yes.

He was set as anyone is going to be taking a charge. Dudes aren't going to be encased in Carbonite.

Yes, I can see that he raised his foot very slightly AFTER jump-stopping and beating Melo to the spot. Totally irrelevant IMO.

The rules do not specify that a defensive player be completely absent of any motion whatsoever in any direction even if it has no bearing on the play - which Manu moving his foot three inches off the floor clearly does not. IMO.

Blogger Basketbawful said...
As far as I can tell, there's nothing that says a player has to be standing stock still when the offensive foul occurs, just that he has established reasonable position before the offnsive player has begun his shooting motion.

Of course this is ignoring the whole "calls that decide games should never be made" argument.

For the record, I'm against throwing out the rules just because it's the final play. If a call is the right call, it should be made.

Now, from THAT perspective, after rewatching the play several times with several pauses, it seems Manu didn't establish his position before 'Melo had gone into his shooting motion.

Anonymous allison said...
Wasn't Hakeem pretty much naturalized basketball-wise? I mean, University of Houston and all?

Blogger Basketbawful said...
To see what I'm getting at, pause the video I put in the post at the 1:11 mark. You'll notice 'Melo has already begun his shooting motion and Manu is just, at that point, sliding to the spot. He has not established his position. Therefore, by the textbook, it is a blocking foul.

Of course, we're talking split seconds here. Haywood Workman didn't have the advantage of fucking around with a YouTube video for 15 minutes.

Anonymous Patrick said...
I don't understand what the problem with the charge call is. Just because Carmelo Anthony wants to flip out doesn't make the call closer. That's a charge if I've even seen one.

Blogger AnacondaHL said...
One of the worst misconceptions, spread by players, fans, announcers, and bad refs alike, is "having both feet set" as the main definition of a charge.

NO. Stop spreading this.

Anonymous Pauley said...
Manu this, Manu that... He is a bad, bad man.

But the best part of that whole game was Reggie Miller talking about George Karl's bad last year in the first half... something like "He got the cancer diagnosis, he battled the cancer, and then his Nuggets imploded in the playoffs." I nearly fell out of my chair. His nuggets imploded? Dang! I hate it when that happens!

Blogger AnacondaHL said...
BTW, the "BEST FOREIGN PLAYER" argument probably was brought up due to basketball reference expanding their player season finder to include birth country, among other awesome things.

Only NBA of course.

Blogger Josh said...
That's why I was asking about movement and such, what I read in the rules says "legal guarding position" and never says anything about "getting feet set" and so on.

@AnacondaHL

That is a MASSIVE misconception then, as I hear that phrase used on nearly every charging call. That alone is Bawful with a capital B.

Were this at any other point in the game, I'd look at Ginobli's foot moving, notice it, shake my head, and move on whether or not I agreed with the call or not. But obviously it was at the end so lots of other things factor in.

What's unfortunate is that you can't say "well if the foul is too close to call in the end and can literally go in either direction, then don't make the call if it's gonna decide the game!" because if the ref sees what he thinks is a foul, he's gonna blow the whistle by reflex (hopefully...). In that split second, he won't have time to think "hm, this is a close one... since it's too close and could go either way, I just won't call it". They can't blow the whistle for a foul, look at the replay, and come back with "Ah sorry... it slipped. No foul. Move along, nothing to see here."

In this case, now knowing that the rules don't specify everything about movement, a foul did need to be called there, but to me, it didn't look like Ginobli had fully established a "legal guarding position". Whether his feet rose or not is irrelevant, I agree with you The Other Chris.

Bawful, you're right that the ref doesn't have the benefit of 15 minutes of dicking around on youtube, but they do have replay and monitors and slo mo and angles. They can take a lot of time to make a call official. If one is of the mindset that a call is a call regardless of when it is, I assume they'd think taking a little more time than normal to make the right call to decide a game, and let's face it that call literally decided the game, would be worth it.

In this case, taking out the "deciding factor" issue, this seems like a normal blocking foul. A close one, but a blocking foul nonetheless.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
To be fair to Kenny and Charles, they discounted Hakeem because he wasn't truly "foreign" to them being a product of NCAA basketball.

I was more outraged that Pau Gasol wasn't even in the discussion. He'll be better than Manu or Dirk by the time it's all said and done.

Anonymous kazam92 said...
I'm a dissenter, I don't think you make that call. If the gajillion other times the refs swallowed their whistle to allow a superstar to get away with a carry or a travel or a charge in a close game, why do it now?


But it WAS a charge. Manu made a great play

Blogger KHayes666 said...
Shaq, Jermaine O'Neal, Von Wafer, Rajon Rondo and Kendrick Perkins....all you need is Marquis Daniels and you'll have an entire starting 5 (plus 6th man) out for a while with injuries.

Now, the difference between this year and last year is that none of the injured are the Big 3. Pierce, Allen and Garnett have been healthy all year and as long as they're vertical they have a chance to win every game.

As for the Spurs/Nuggets game, that was clearly a charge but just like Apostrophe, still was a hell of a shot by Mello.

Anyone know the ratings for last night's Wizards/Nets game?

Anonymous Czernobog said...
It looked to me like the correct call. Manu establishes position just as 'Melo is stepping onto hisleft foot, the one he shot off of. So just before he went into his shooting motion.

Blogger Wormboy said...
Poor Devin Harris. Classic case of a great role player being mistaken for a franchise player.

I'm pissed at Kenny Smith. You freakin played with Dream and you can even entertain that thought for a moment? Not hating on Manu here, but how in the world could he be considered as "best foreign player" when you look at what Olajuwon did at his peak? The guy played near perfect basketball for two straight championship runs, and doing so also owned three hall-of-fame centers (Ewing, Robinson and Shaq). For two playoffs, Dream probably played some of the best basketball at center ever played, both O and D. Russell and, grudgingly, Wilt still rank ahead of him, but holy shit, how can you have that conversation? Loose cannon Chuck can be excused, but 1) Kenny is usually more rational, and 2) he freakin played with Hakeem!




On the Turks vs. Armenian fuss: I never cease to be amazed at these kind of racial grudges. Can we agree that the Holocaust was a little worse than the Armenian genocide? Not trying to sell Armenians short here on an awful historical event, but 6 million Jews (not to mention 20+ million Russians) trumps Armenians, sorry. Yet do you hear this kind of stuff about Germany, even though it was a generation more recent? Granted, Turkey has never accepted any responsibility, while Germany subsequently perfected the art of national abasement and self-flaggelation. But still. I could maybe see it if Kobe had done something a little more pro-Turkey than endorsing a stupid airline in exchange for cash.

Yet they are not alone. The Serbs have showed an even crazier obsession. Not sure if anybody can help me out here, but I recall a Serbian NBA player (maybe Divac but I don't think so), when asked about the ongoing wartime brutalities in the former Yugoslavia, said something along the lines of "well, their people killed my people 600 years ago." Dude, really? REALLY?

Anybody else remember this? I'm trying to google it, but am striking out.

Blogger Wormboy said...
PS Might be the Petrovic-Divac thing about the Serb-Croatian conflict. Just don't remember.

Blogger 49er16 said...
The Inside the NBA crew were discussing Sterling heckling Baron Davis last night, then all hell broke loose.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgoWEbrzYSM&feature=player_embedded

I'm sorry for not having a clue about how to link videos in the comments.

Anonymous The Other Chris said...
On the Turks vs. Armenian fuss: I never cease to be amazed at these kind of racial grudges. Can we agree that the Holocaust was a little worse than the Armenian genocide?

Hoo, boy. This blog is, at least to me, a place to discuss basketball and basketball only, preferably in the most ridiculous, hyperbolic, sarcastic and amusing un-politically correct fashion possible. I for one would like to see it remain that way. There are plenty of other places where you can go to have pointless political arguments about whatever you wish - Turkey vs. Armenia, the Balkans, the Middle East, the "ism" of your choice - capitalism, socialism, communism, anarchism - etc., etc., etc.

tldr; Please, pretty please, this ain't the place for such discussions.

Now can we get back to posting the Raptor mascot fail video, making fun of Hedo Turkoglu for his enormous universe-destroying suck, debating the gaping holes in Amar''''''e and Kevin Love's games, and so forth.

Blogger Solieyu said...
http://failbook.failblog.org/2010/12/13/funny-facebook-fails-celtic-pride/

Blogger chris said...

Blogger AnacondaHL said...
"I'm sorry for not having a clue about how to link videos in the comments."

The HTML tag a with href attribute.

Blogger Basketbawful said...
Random stuff.

Bottom five in Strength of Schedule:

26th: Magic (.468)
27th: 76ers (.467)
28th: Kings (.438)
29th: Knicks (.422)
30th: Lakers (.408)

Wow. Lakers with, easily, the cake-iest schedule. Only one of their last 10 opponents are currently above .500. Their next three opponents are sub-.500 and six of their next nine games are against sub-.500s.

In fact, holy shit, in their first 26 games, the Lakers have played only four games against opponents that are currently above .500. Fuck.

Btw, Spurs are 25th (.480)

Top five in SOS:

1st: Bulls (.547)
2nd: Bucks (.545)
3rd: Nuggets (.545)
4th: Hornets (.542)
5th: Jazz (.539)

FWIW, Celtics are 11th (.519).

Blogger Wild Yams said...
Not to worry, Mr. Bawful, the Lakers schedule is gonna get rather difficult pretty soon :)

Wormboy - You gotta put Kareem ahead of Hakeem for all time great centers. Hakeem was fantastic, but Kareem won the MVP 6 times for crying out loud! Why do people always forget him? :(

Blogger chris said...
Ya know, seeing the Paupers with the easiest strength of schedule by any team Not In A Major Market...

Well...

I could ask "why are they so bad," but I guess I should be grateful that there aren't moving vans outside of Arco Arena.

yet.

Coincidentally, LOUISVILLE PINING FOR THE ASSOCIATION - http://bit.ly/hcqFuK - Dan B. pleased!

Blogger AnacondaHL said...
Yams, of course we don't forget, best co-pilot and kung fu fighter ever in the NBA!

Blogger Basketbawful said...
You gotta put Kareem ahead of Hakeem for all time great centers. Hakeem was fantastic, but Kareem won the MVP 6 times for crying out loud! Why do people always forget him? :(

It's an excellent quetions, Yams.

Look, I'm as big a Hakeem fan as anybody. BadDave can attest to that. But Kareem's body of work makes him a Top 5 All-Time Player. Six championships. Six MVPs and NINE OTHER TOP FIVE FINISHES in MVP voting. Two Finals MVPs (and one that was stolen by Magic Johnson in 1980...no, seriously, Kareem was the MVP of that series), 19 All-Star Games, 10 All-NBA First Teams, 5 All-NBA Second Teams, 5 All-NBA All-Defensive First Teams, 6 All-NBA All-Defensive Second Teams, and so many other records it boggles the mind.

He's been historically underrated because his most dominant years were in the 1970s, which was a down period for the NBA, and because Magic Johnson stole all the attention during the 80s.

Blogger Basketbawful said...
Think about that again. I mean Kareem's 15 top five finishes in MVP voting. That means, for 15 straight years, he was one of the top five players alive. And his career spanned the end of the Chamberlain era into the Jordan era.

Anonymous Basketbupendous said...
WoTN to the New York Times:

"But was [LeBron James] a big enough guy to man the burden of resurrecting the Knicks? Obviously not -- or at least not as ready, willing and capable as was Amar’e Stoudemire."

Journalism fail!

Blogger Wild Yams said...
Mr. Bawful - I think you're right about Kareem's dominant era coming during the NBA's "dark ages" being the reason he's overlooked so much. That and because when he was most visible he was at the end of his career winning championships as arguably Magic Johnson's sidekick (that's how he seems to be seen anyway). I'm sure you and I have discussed this before, but IMO when you look at his body of work (most of which came before I ever began watching him play), I think there's a strong case to be made that he's the second greatest player to ever play behind Jordan. I still can't believe the Lakers haven't yet put a statue of him outside Staples Center. I mean, Oscar De La Hoya got one, how does Kareem not have one?

Anonymous JJ said...
Hakeem gets remembered because he had the silky-smooth Dream Shake (though it kind of sounds like a stripper move).

Kareem's skyhook was fugly (aka "not sexy") so we don't remember it as much.

On a more serious note, obviously Kareem achieved more than Hakeem, partially due to his longevity. But, I think Hakeem benefited from the major media attention that existed thanks to Jordan.

And saying "Hakeeeeeeeeem" is more fun than "Kareeeeeeeeem". So, +1 for the Dream.

Anonymous Keith said...
Why do people always forget him? :(

Because he's an asshole?

Anonymous Anonymous said...
Expanding on what bawful said, Kareem gets overlooked because he was one of those many black superstars in that time period who didn't go out of their way to make nice with the media, leading many to label them "hostile" or even worse "uppity".

Pretty much he got all the negative PR from the Ali era, toiled in a league in obscurity, spent his early good years in Siberia (eh, Milwaukee's close enough) and nobody liked him. It's pretty much the perfect storm of negative PR all rolled together.

It's sad, because there's a really good chance that the day he retired (and got that tiny little sports car) he was the greatest basketball player who ever played. And only about 20 years later people forget about him all the time, like how Charles completely forgot him during his completely insane "Kobe is top 5 in history" rant on TNT from a few weeks ago that caused Kenny to almost get up and walk off set.

Anonymous DKH said...
Question about the strength of schedule discussion. Do the SOS measurements include games against the team being measured? I mean, the Lakers (Spurs, Miami, whoever) may look to have an easy schedule because the win % of their opponents is low...but collectively, their opponents may also be taking a huge ding because they played the Lakers. On the other side, SOS makes it look like the Clippers (Cavs, Nets, Wizards, etc.) play a hard schedule, but their opponents collectively have an extra 16 games above .500 just from playing the Clippers (5-21).

Are there SOS measurements that factor out this effect?

(Quick math: The Clippers have played 21 other teams, which, for the sake of estimate, I will assume have also played 26 games. Then, the 16 games over .500 from the Clippers are a 0.029 boost to the Clippers' SOS. Taking that out of their SOS would drop them about 5 slots, so this seems significant, at least at this point in the season.

Alternatively: The Lakers have played 17 other teams and are 12 games above .500, so the Lakers are lowering their own SOS by 0.027 just by virtue of winning so many games. That only raises them one slot, though, since they are so far below the pack in SOS.)

Anonymous henri said...
@wormboy

Sorry dude but the short answer to your question is no. You don't rank 'genocides' like Top 10 Dunks list and you don't get to choose which ones count and which don't.

When one 'people' seeks to exterminate another 'people', then it is important to understand the whys, hows, wheres and whos so that that type of evil is never perpetrated again on any 'people'.

You can't dismiss death camps and medical murder because is happened a half-generation earlier than you feel interested in.

1 million people were exterminated. 1,000,000 human beings murdered en masse by a country's internal policies.

"They came first for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up."

Blogger Wild Yams said...
Look, I think the Armenians are pissed at Kobe thing is not really about them being upset with Kobe (my guess is they don't really care), but they are just seeing this as an opportunity to get their message out that Turkey killed 1.5 million Armenians. I mean, their campaign is just to get it officially recognized as a genocide, and anything having to do with Kobe is gonna get you some press. If they end up doing any protests or boycotting anything, that's their end goal. They just want the recognition, and this is an easy way to get some.

Anonymous Karc said...
@Yams - This is a fail on Kobe's PR department. Someone should have gone up to him and told him that a ton of Armenians live in LA, and that one is married to one of his teammates. He clearly doesn't need the money. He'd almost be tolerable if the story was he turned down the endorsement because he was sensitive to the situation. But that's not what happened. So a little hate for him right now is fine. It'll blow over.

Blogger Wild Yams said...
Karc - I've got no doubt that when this blows over you'll still be able to find a little hate for Kobe :)

I think this "controversy" is silly and will go away quickly, just like the one about him holding a gun in a commercial did. It's a non-story. The Armenians just wanted to get some more press on their cause and they got that, but that's about as far as it can go. In the end it's an absurd thing to be upset about. Would you be upset at someone famous for endorsing Volkswagen or BMW simply because those are German companies, and Germany killed millions of people in the Holocaust? Would you be upset at someone for endorsing Sony or Toshiba because those companies are from Japan, where they engineered the Rape of Nanking? Or hell, what about all the people who endorse American companies? I mean, we had slavery here for hundreds of years. Does that make it insensitive that Larry Bird endorsed McDonald's? I don't think so.

Like I said, Kobe is a huge star and draws a lot of attention to anything with his name attached to it. The Armenians are just latching onto this to draw attention to their cause. That's it.

Blogger AnacondaHL said...
DKH - Yes. That effect is factored out by different versions of SOS, particularly versions that include opponent's opponents record. These are what you're probably looking for, such as RPI or the BCS SOS, such that the Lakers winning more helps to increase the rating.

Or you can jump straight to the adult table and look at SRS, which includes home court advantage and point differential in addition to SOS.

Blogger Wormboy said...
@ The Other Chris: Not trying to open up a debate, but it IS basketball related. I was mainly just tossing it out there to see if anybody remembered the particulars. While I don't remember the person, I have this gut "holy shit, did he just say that?" memory about the quote.

@ Yams: Jebus, yes. Why did I forget Kareem? Gah. Maybe it was his cameo in Airplane! :P

More realistically, I missed most of Kareem's prime, but I did watch in dropped-jaw amazement during Dream's runs. The defense, the fadeway baseline jumper. The other thing that must be said about Dream: look at his teammates. Roll players and Drexler's corpse.

Still, not trying to put Dream above Kareem. Old Lew was clearly one of the best ball players ever.

Another note: none of these top centers had the rules changed to favor them, like Shaq did. That's why IMO Shaq can't crack the elite centers no matter how many rings he gets. People always say "but he changed the game!" My retort is "Really? I thought the game was changed FOR him."

Blogger chris said...
Not enough is said about Kareem's biggest Association accomplishment, IMO: leading an expansion team to an title THREE YEARS AFTER ITS CREATION. In MILWAUKEE.

Not single-handedly (he had Oscar with him) but still. That's an accomplishment basically unmatched in sports.

That would be like if Oliver Miller had somehow lost a bunch of weight and led the Dinos to win the 1998 Association title.

But he didn't and they didn't, and so they continue to be well-represented by that clip I've already posted.

Blogger Josh said...
@Wormboy

Interestingly enough, Chamberlain had the game changed for him as well. He was a notoriously bad free throw shooter and at the end of close games, teams would inentionally foul him whether had the ball or not to send him to the line. This resulted in Chamberlain literally running around the court like a game of tag to get away from the other team. The league got sick of it and so they created the off-the-ball foul rule.

This isn't meant to toss my hat into the ring as to where I'd rank Chamberlain, I just thought it was funny and appropriate since you mentioned the game being changed to favor a player.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
I don't know if anyone anywhere DVRd this, but last night Barkley said something classic. And un-bleeped.

Here's the bit that livedash caught:
http://www.livedash.com/transcript/inside_the_nba/77/TNTP/Thursday_December_16_2010/533873/

00:22:00 >> Melo had 31 on the night.
00:22:02 Seventh time he's been over 30 this season.
00:22:07 Al harrington.
00:22:09 He tied the game.
00:22:11 >> I told you, you couldn't get a pen up his ass.
00:22:18 >> Certain thing you can say at 2:00 in the morning.
00:22:24 >> Jackhammer?
00:22:27 >> Crazy.

Pen up his ass. Jackhammering his ass? I don't know what Charles was trying to say, but that he said it and it sounded pretty explicit for Inside the NBA was awesome. As Ernie said "Certain things you can say at 2 in the morning"

Anonymous Mladen said...
Yes, we Serbs are murderous savages. I just love how these kind of comments don't get deleted, yet, when Ultra Misanthrope (if I'm not mistaken) started asking why do people hate LeBron so much, one of the moderators was apologizing for not deleting his comments. Way to go, guys.
If I learned anything living in one of the "troubled regions", and being one of "those savages", it's that you should never rely on your media to give you a clear picture of what's going on in a conflict far away from your country. And you should never try to just mention it casually, and use it to make some smart-ass point, because you think that shows how worldly and educated you are.
Also, I know this comment goes kind of against what The Other Chris said, but I agree with him totally. This is not a place for those kind of discussions.

Blogger Will said...
chris- it's not basketball, but the florida marlins won the world series in their 5th year led by world series mvp jose mesa. in fact whenever they make the postseason they win the title.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
To add to the strength of schedule thoughts brought up earlier. The thing that stands out is that the Hornets have the 4th hardest schedule so far. I feel that this is inflated due to the fact they have played the Spurs 3 times and the Mavericks twice. With those five game against those two opponents they add 96 games over .500 to their SOS.

Blogger Will said...
As of 8:56 of the 4th quarter, the Utah Jazz have 15 rebounds. Those are grade-school numbers, people.

Blogger Will said...
And its final. The Jazz finish with 24 boards but were outrebounded by 39. AnacondaHL, where do you get your reounding% numbers. I'd love to see them.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
I had a long comment about how stupid it is to put any stock in ancestry and group history (none of us fought in WWII, but plenty of Americans act like they personally backhanded Rommel), but I deleted it in favor of this argument:

Ginobili is clearly the best internationl player of all time, because of what he did to Kevin Garnett:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCqefcY7lpI

Plus, the bat-swat, the broken nose game, the argentine gold medal, and the fact that he's one of the few players who actually has the stats to prove he's clutch.

Anonymous Czernobog said...
Manu is the best international BaTsketball player of all time!

Anonymous dave m said...
Wait... I think I read the Nets section pretty carefully and no mention of Sasha's debut, letting them fly with impugnity - 3 for 10, 0 for 5 from outside? C'mon, this could be a beautiful new beginning for the machine.

Blogger Wormboy said...
@Mladen: I didn't see anybody call Serbs "murderous savages" or anything like that, though I'm sorry if you felt attacked. What I did trot out was a crazy comment rationalizing war based on centuries-old ethnic grudges. So let's talk about a statement by an NBA player without knocking down ridiculous straw men.

Blogger AnacondaHL said...
Mladen - I haven't been really reading that conversation, since you're all being stupid about it, but if you point out specific comment that you deem worth for deletion, such as your murderous savages claim, by all means notify me.

P.S. No one actually said that. I'm pretty sure most people only know about Serbia because of the Two Brothers 30 for 30.

Anon - Yes, that is the point of raw SOS, just a combined total of W/L. Stuff gets inflated and deflated. If you're going to start being selective about who you've played, it's time to start looking at point differentials, at least.

Will - Pretty much in any team or player page of basketball reference, (e.g. 2011 Knicks), but a running overview of the season can be seen at the bottom of the page, under Misc stats for teams, and the leaders below. Or for all players, the Play Index search is simple and customizable.

Blogger AnacondaHL said...
Will - Whoops, your example was the Jazz. Yes, they are awful at rebounding this year, with Al Jeff under expectations and Fesenko being fat. Ranked 21st in offensive reb% (24.8%, league avg is 26.3%), and ranked a whopping 28th in defensive reb% (69.6%, league avg is 73.7. Yes, that is lower than the Suns, who write articles when their center has a 10 game streak of 5+ rebounds.)

Blogger BluesForARedSun said...
In defense of Kenny/Chuck, I don't really consider The Dream to be a foreign player, either. I mean, not in the traditional mold. He did go to University of Houston for 3 years, and as such, I wouldn't consider him much more of a 'foreign' player than I would Tim Duncan.

(I also consider Bogut not to be a truly 'international' player for the same reasons, but 'international' is kind of a stupid moniker to begin with, because it's so vague.)

Anonymous Czernobog said...
There's a fairly simple definition of an "International" player taken from other team sports - A player who plays for their national team. Nowitzky, Petrovic and Ginobili qualify, I'm fairly certain the Dream doesn't.

Blogger Dan B. said...
Good God. Check out this story:

The Orlando Magic, already in serious trade talks with the Washington Wizards about acquiring Gilbert Arenas, have agreed to a deal in principle with the Phoenix Suns, according to league sources.

The trade returns former Magic star Hedo Turkoglu, along with Jason Richardson and Earl Clark, to Orlando in exchange for Vince Carter, Marcin Gortat, Mickael Pietrus, a 2011 first-round pick and cash considerations.

Orlando, losers of five of its last six games, is also close to acquiring Arenas for Rashard Lewis, sources said.

Blogger Bing said...
Why is the Magic hitting the panic button?
Here's an idea, run your offense thru your All Star center instead of ignoring him and jacking long jumpers.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
Trade talk interesting but holy shit, check out this quote from Delonte West to the Boston Herald

"I feel wonderful, first and foremost," he said. "I use a bone stimulator for 10 hours a day. I get this cast off in two weeks, but I've already started conditioning, shooting jumpers and working out already."

Is this guy a goddamn cyborg?

Anonymous dave m said...
Dan - Magic must really want Hedo back, what with the salary escalators each year? Carter and Richardson are both expiring contracts... is Phoenix just starting to dump already?

Anonymous Anonymous said...
The trade happened...
That means that Vince Carter is now a Sun, playing alongside Steve Nash.
I'm going to go cry in my bed now.

Blogger Solieyu said...
Phoenix Suns in full blow up mode, it seems. I don't see this move making the Magic much better. They still don't have anything resembling a playmaker, unless you count Gilbert Arenas, who they finalized a trade for with Lewis. One mammoth ill-considered contract for another.

They should have tried to nab Nash instead of Turkododo and J-Rich.

Wizards don't get any better. Suns get a bit bigger inside, and get a good outside shooter. Jason Richardson for VC is kind of a wash. I'd say J-Rich is marginally better, but that's with Nash feeding him cookies.

So now the Magic have a point-guard who can't distribute or defend. Two shooting guards who have to dominate the ball to score. One much diminished Hedo Turkododo at small forward. Brandon Bass at PF, and D'wight at Center. They get some addition by subtraction with the loss of Vag Carter, but lose the Howard's back up and one of their better 3 ballers.

This makes playing against the Magic fairly simple now. Attack Howard to get him into foul trouble. They have no back-up Center, nor anyone else who can dominate a ball game. Arenas doesn't scare anyone, these days.

Blogger zyth said...
@Dan B.
TOTALLY OFFICIAL.
holy crap.

Anonymous Pete said...
Please refrain from overrating.

Manu:
2007-08 NBA All-NBA (3rd)

Dirk:
2000-01 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2001-02 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2002-03 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2003-04 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2004-05 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2005-06 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2006-07 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2007-08 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2008-09 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-NBA (2nd)


Hakeem:
1985-86 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
1986-87 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1986-87 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1987-88 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1987-88 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1988-89 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1989-90 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1989-90 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
1990-91 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
1990-91 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
1992-93 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1992-93 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1993-94 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1993-94 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1994-95 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
1995-96 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
1995-96 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
1996-97 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
1996-97 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1998-99 NBA All-NBA (3rd)

Blogger AnacondaHL said...
Well I just read the news.

Fuck this gay earth.

I'll try to be positive and see Pietrus as a shooter fit for the Suns, and the upside of Gortat as our big, but honestly, this gay earth.

Anonymous Mladen said...
Okay, first let's get the non-basketball stuff out of the way: This wasn't an "easy-to-offend foreigner" moment. Since I do frequent this site, and it's comments section, I can't allow gross generalizations, which are offensive to my people and detrimental to our image, to just be thrown around like that. I do believe that Wormboy has no particular beef with my nation, but his comment was a good example of propaganda being repeated by everyday people who know very little of the situation here. If repeated often enough, it becomes "the truth", so to say. You know - you're reading the comments, like: "Oh, yeah, that's right! Hakeem was a foreign player! But, I'm not sure if I would put him in front of Kareem...The Serbs are crazy, and had something to do with some brutalities. Duh!...The Magic just made a God-awful trade...etc." This stuff just sort of gets etched in your brain, especially 'cause you don't really care about it. But, the next time somebody brings up the Yugoslavian civil war, you'll say: "Oh yeah! The Serbs murdered the shit out of those other people because of some 600-year-old feud!".
How would you guys have liked it, if I had written a comment like: "Yeah, I totally don't get those Armenians! I mean, the USA brutally murdered thousands of innocent Japanese civilians with the world's most horrible weapon (twice!), but you don't see the Japanese boycotting the NBA." Would any American have been "cool" with that?
Also, sorry for the long-ass comment, but just to answer AnacondaHL's question: I was referring to the guy bravely hiding behind the "Anonymous" moniker, who, some time ago, flat out called Serbs a genocidal people and savages. He was obviously trolling, but still...

Now, apropos the Magic's recent moves: they're fucked.

Anonymous Marylander said...
What kind of a deal is that??!!? WOW. This is good news for the Lakers as the Suns are officially done. Nice.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
I think this is relevant to the subject

Anyways, I doubt PHX will be keeping Carter and will be shipping him back to Toronto ASAP. They better be.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
What about a guy like Steve Nash for best international player ever. I mean he is in the running, although I agree that Hakeem the Dream is probably the best one ever. I guess maybe people don't consider him international like Dirk because he learned basketball from a US college.

Anonymous kazam92 said...
Poor Nash.....

Blogger JerryT said...
"Arenas doesn't scare anyone, these days." unless he's got a gun. and you know this can happen.



@trade: i am from poland so i am happy for gortat. i hope and believe that getting more minutes while knowing he is counted on can make him a better player. also i do believe his running to screens, and good movement without the ball does fit into suns style. add that to a piot guard that actually does pass, and it may be interesting.

Blogger AnacondaHL said...
After rethinking the trade, and looking at the specifics, I think the Suns ended up not as bad as it could be.

At the beginning of the season, I put the success of the season on Hedo's performance. Obviously, this has changed now, such that it's become "Can Gortat give 30 minutes of PnR Polish Hammer with Nash and can Vince Carter's Expiring Contract contriubte?". I see Pietrus flourishing in the Suns system, so no biggie there.

Best of luck to Jason Richardson and my fantasy team.

Blogger Viscant said...
I'm not just requesting a worst of the night for the end of the Generals/Heat game, I'm requesting a worst of the season. The Generals list of fails in order from where they were up 5 with 32 seconds to play.

1) Giving up a 3 pointer to Bosh.
2) Josh Howard missing 2 of 4 FTs
3) Blatche fouling Bosh for 3.
4) Nick Young turning over the ball on the inbounds.
5) Nick Young then fouling James Jones.
6) Kirk Hinrich botching a FT
7) The defense parting like the Red Sea to allow Wade to drive to the cup.
8) Kirk Hinrich trying what was apparently a no-look over the shoulder heave for the winner instead of using the 8 seconds to actually get a shot at the hole.

That much fail in 32 seconds? Worst. Of. The. Year.

Blogger Dan B. said...
That much fail in 32 seconds? Worst. Of. The. Year.

Holy shit. I'm almost disappointed I didn't get to see this sequence. It sounds as bawful as the trade action today. (Seriously, Vinsanity as a Sun? FML)

Blogger Wild Yams said...
Marylander said - What kind of a deal is that??!!? WOW. This is good news for the Lakers as the Suns are officially done.

No offense to Phoenix fans, but I don't think the Suns were really much standing in LA's way this year anyway, even before this trade. Dallas, San Antonio, Utah and OKC are of far greater concern for the Lakers in the West this year.

As for the fail by Washington at the end of today's Heat game, here's how the AP recap of the game started off:

LeBron James and Chris Bosh converged on Kirk Hinrich, who was driving toward the basket for the layup that could end the Miami Heat's winning streak.

Contact by James. Contact by Bosh. Hinrich is helpless as he floats a shot that comes nowhere close as time expires.

No call by the officials.


Here's video of the play and you can see James hit Hinrich pretty squarely in the shoulder as he's releasing the shot. I don't like to see the officials decide a game winning play like that, but that looks pretty bad.

Blogger Rich Muhlach said...
The Orlando trades surely must shake things up with the Knicks... Someone get Nash and Carmelo to them, trade Eddy Curry's contract quick

Anonymous kazam92 said...
Viscant is right, I was ready for bawful to trash Miami and rightly so. We played like absolute dogshit. Classic case of playing down to our comp....then the last 32 secs happened. Amazing win.


WIz fans: Nick Young is a bit mindless but the guy is a flat out scorer. Use this guy

Blogger Viscant said...
Yeah the TRULY bawful part about that last 32 seconds was that the Heat had a series of fails that was almost just as bad. Their series in order.

1) Ran 2 consecutive plays that were designed to get CHRIS BOSH 3 point shots. They got 5 points out of this but still, this was not a great idea.
2) When Josh Howard bricked a FT, allowed an offensive rebound by...Josh Howard. I'm not sure the Heat rebounders even thought about Howard getting the ball back.
3) Bosh bricks a FT.
4) Miami inexplicably fouls Hinrich on an inbounds pass in a tie game.

Not quite as epic a failure as what Washington threw up but still, this was a horrible ending. If you add it up, the teams averaged more than 1 failure every 3 seconds of gameplay. That 32 second sequence will not be topped anytime soon.

Although I have to mention...the Clippers gave it their best shot tonight.

Blogger Clifton said...
I believe Phoenix is gearing up for next year. Plain and simple. Nash is under contract through the end of '11-'12... I think there's a 50-50 shot that Carter will yet be dealt for prospects and/or picks.

About JRich... he's been good while he's been here, but everyone's been awful quick to forget his drunk-driving arrest and a 2nd arrest for doing 90 in a 35-mph zone just a couple miles north of my house. He hasn't exactly been a model citizen, although he's perpetually described as "well-liked in the locker room".

So, I dunno. If we had to give up JRich to get someone to take Turkoglu's God-forsaken contract, it's a bitter pill, but I guess I can accept it in that case. Plus, we essentially got a draft-day do-over by tossing in Earl Clark and getting Orlando's 2011 first-round pick. Mulligan!

If he's staying, Vince could be pretty good, still... especially coming here with Phoenix's medical staff and their weird voodoo magic that reanimated Grant Hill's ankle and Shaq's overall corpse. But like I said, I really feel like he'll be out the door before long, 'Sheed-to-Atlanta style.

Blogger Josh said...
@Wild Yams

And this goes directly into my comment earlier regarding swallowing the whistle the last 30 seconds or so of a game. If Carmelo's contact with Ginobli was enough to draw a foul, any foul at all regardless of its dubious nature (in either player's favor) then Hinrich getting hammered in the arm by Lebron is quite clearly an easy call to make. But no whistle. Obviously different refs see things different ways, especially on close calls. This was not a close call. This was a foul.

Inconsistency pisses me off more than anything, but I just grit my teeth and bear it when the calls are close and I'm just being a homer. Again, this was not a close call. The whole "well the Wizards deserved to lose because of their awful last 30 seconds of play" is a bullshit argument. One could easily say "the Heat deserved to lose but didn't because of the refs turning a blind eye to obvious contact".

Like I said before, I agree with Bawful that a foul is a foul regardless of when it happens. If there's an iffy foul that you wouldn't normally call during any other point in the game, then it's still an iffy foul that you probably won't call at the end. That would have most definitely been a foul at any other point, but the officials opted to decide the game by not doing what they would have at any other point. Now we get to hear even more ballwashing about the Heat's "dominance".

Blogger stephanie g said...
If Vince turns the clock back 5 or 6 years that will trigger an FBI investigation into Phoenix's medical practices, right?

I'm starting to think that all of Phx's weird trades and selling off of picks over the years is the result of Sarver not understanding Nash's deadpan sarcasm.

People will want to (rightfully) focus on the 4th quarter of the Heat-Generals game, but there was also a nice little bawful moment when LeBron did a heat check and bricked a pull up 35 footer. Also Javale McGee attempting suicide via James Jones: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSJWrQst0yQ.

Miami's victory is a text book example of a "feel bad win."

Blogger eljpeman said...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=901TKQeeE0A

Starting at 0:39. If you don't learn from your mistakes, that's bawful. plain bawful. Bonus bawful for the charge!

Makes me crave for hotdogs all of a sudden.

Blogger Clifton said...
Btw (from this article)...
---
Agent Dan Fegan told Richardson of the possible trade before Friday's loss at Dallas.

"Being that go-to guy is overrated," said Richardson, whose expiring deal was unlikely to get extended. "I'm all about winning. Going to Orlando gives me a chance to win a championship."
---
Well, good to know he'd already given up on our season.

Anonymous The Other Chris said...
@Clifton

I don't think Vag Carter has very much value on the market these days. J-Rich is a much better player at this point in their careers, IMO.

Anyways congratulations on getting rid of He-doo-doo. BALL!

Anonymous Mike Mai said...
lebron gets punished: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlIZOXFZ8yE

Anonymous Anonymous said...
Steve Francis, a Beijing debut, 17 seconds, and an ice pack. All at the same time.

http://www.niubball.com/2010/12/surprise-francis-plays-17-seconds-in-beijing-debut/

Blogger Wild Yams said...
Quietly the Lakers just went 6-1 on their 7 game road trip (for everyone complaining about how easy LA's schedule is, they have another 7 game road trip in February), and have won all four games by double figures since Bynum returned. They play at home against Milwaukee Tuesday then they're off till the big Heat matchup on Xmas Day.

Josh - I agree, a foul is a foul and should be called no matter how much time is left on the clock. Anyway, if the refs were gonna swallow their whistles at the end, then how come Wade got two free throws with only 7 seconds left?

Clifton - Vince's problem isn't that he's perpetually injured, it's that he doesn't give a crap. If Phoenix's doctors know how to fix that then they really are miracle workers.

Blogger Dan B. said...
Footbawful unintentionally dirty quote, per SI's Jimmy Traina:

Fox's Tim Ryan just now on Michael Turner: "He'll pound you, pound you, pound you, and then he'll pop one."

Anonymous Czernobog said...
And the giants pretty much redefined choking tonight.

Starting an unofficial Demar/Kobe watch. Derozan is apparently much more motivated when he matches up with his idol the Mamba.

Anonymous Marylander said...
@Wild Yams agree esp with OKC.

How about Javale Mcgee's dunk bawfulness?? I close my eyes everytime I see the guy taking it to the rim. Nick Young's reaction last night was priceless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beypoYeTqYc

Blogger AnacondaHL said...
The 9 man rotation the Suns used tonight to beat the Thunder was honestly much closer to the rotation I thought they should have used and built towards. Though I still can't believe Hill is playing so many minutes, that's gotta change as the end of the season comes around, but hope is still afloat for the season.

Anonymous SnakeEyes said...
Let's get this 'best international player' thing straight. If Hakeem didn't go to college in the U.S, he is far and away the best international player ever. But because we don't work with that definition (which takes out Nash too), it's between Ginobili and Nowitzki:

I really don't see Pau Gasol as a candidate - he's AMAZING, don't get me wrong, but not on Dirk or Manu's level. Manu defies everything stereotypical about European players, you know, how they're soft, whiny, feathery, etc. The guy is the Argentinian Kobe and is clutch as hell. When Spurs need to score in crunch time, they don't go to Timmy, they go to Manu, and he usually delivers.

Now, onto Dirk - I'd have to give the title of best foreign player ever to him. Manu, as amazing as he is, still has Duncan as the franchise. Dirk CARRIES the Mavericks on his BACK - he carried them on the fucking finals. There's never been a player like him in the NBA, and never will be - closest thing is Bargnani but he's nowhere near Dirk's level yet.

Gasol is only in this debate since joining the Lakers - again, don't get me wrong, he's absolutely lethal, and versatile, but NOT as versatile as Dirk. Dirk is a franchise player who continues to put the Mavs on his back and make them a threat every year - When Gasol was the franchise in Memphis, they went nowhere. Dirk has not had a single great player alongside him since Nash and Finley left and he still makes the Mavs a playoff team year in year out. When Memphis faced Dallas, Dirk took Pau to fucking school and back, does nobody remember that?

Best international player ever = Dirk Nowitzki, with Manu Ginobili probably on the same level. And they're both clutch.

Anonymous Czernobog said...
Manu Defies the euro stereotype because he's not European, he's Argentinean. He actually fits the Argentinean stereotype to a T.

As for the best International (or rather, non-american) player, I actually think it was Arvydas Sabonis. It's just too bad he got to the NBA when his career was already in decline. If Hakeem is considered American, of course.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
Not sure why everyone is bagging on Phoenix's side of the trade. I know Carter is extremely low-rated around here, but honestly, the dropoff from Richardson to Carter is not that big, especially since (a) Richardson has been playing above his established talent-level for last year's playoffs and the first quarter of this season, and (b) in Phoenix, Carter will be allowed to do what we all know he wants to do: stay out of the paint, loaf around the 3-point line, and throw in wide open jumpers off of Nash dimes (and he'll be pretty good at that). As far as Gortat vs. Hedo, come on, is that even a question who wins that swap? Throw in a useful bench player and a first-rounder and cash to Phoenix, and this is a solid win for them.

Anonymous Original said...
100th comment! Sweet, I don't know if I've seen Basketbawful go to 100 comments. I'm sure it has, but regardless, I am proud to be in this spot. I remember the days when 10 was a lot. Congrats Bawful!

Blogger AnacondaHL said...
1) Despite his character questions, JRich atleast kept himself in shape, and even bought into the Nash diet. In addition to being a primary scoring option, he was also our strongest rebounder, I kid you not. Yes, Vince can jack up the three and biff dunks, but anyone convincing themselves he can contribute like JRich is kidding themselves. At worst he's our indefinitely injured expiring contract.

2) We know Gortat talks big, and has the per36 to back it up, but can he really back it up to provide 30 as a starter, or even platoon it for 24 with Lopez? I'm cautiously hesitant.

3) I don't know Pietrus, but what I've heard from most Golden State and Orlando fans talking and his excellent numbers, I see him fitting right in with the Phoenix system.

In conclusion, props to Sarver for saving face. Not like he said it out loud, but you know too many owners before being too stubborn to fix their mistakes. These are much better risks than what we had to start the season. With Gentry's 10 man roster magic, I think this could work out.

A solemn good luck to the Magic fans out there =(

Anonymous The Other Chris said...
Ruh roh, the Bulls lost to the Clippers? I expect some entertaining comments vis-a-vis Mr. McHale..

For Phoenix, the trade means that they've basically turned Leandro Barbosa and J-Rich into Vag Carter, Gortat, Pietrus, and a fairly useless late first-round draft pick. Apart from turning J-Rich into Vag, which is a definite loss, not a bad move(s) for Phoenix. There's no question they need some size, and Pietrus is a great fit for them.

The really puzzling part of this deal is why Otis Smith decided to trade for Gilbert Arenas.. that could hella implode, and fast.

Also He-doo-doo still sucks BALLS, and I don't expect Orlando to be as rejuvenating as sports writers seem to think it is..

Blogger Dunpizzle said...
Please include the NY Giants in a Worst of the Weekend post

Blogger Solieyu said...
Anaconda, I agree that's too many minutes... I think coach Gentry knows that.

Blogger BadDave said...
Note to Bawfulites: Bawful has to deal with some stuff - he should hopefully be posting regularly come Wednesday; until then he will probably be spotty with the posts.

And don't let this ruin your Kwanzaa. He's good, it's just one of those things that comes up in life.

Anonymous Smagicks said...
Basketawful Sequence Supreme


7:15 Danny Granger misses 25-foot three point jumper
7:13 Roy Hibbert offensive rebound
7:11 Roy Hibbert misses layup
7:09 Tyler Hansbrough offensive rebound
7:09 Nate Robinson blocks Tyler Hansbrough's layup
7:07 Tyler Hansbrough offensive rebound
7:07 Tyler Hansbrough misses layup
7:07 Roy Hibbert offensive rebound
7:07 Roy Hibbert misses tip shot
7:05 Indiana offensive team rebound
6:56 Danny Granger misses layup
6:54 Darren Collison offensive rebound
6:52 Danny Granger misses 23-foot three point jumper
6:50 Indiana offensive team rebound
6:50 Tyler Hansbrough loose ball foul (Glen Davis draws the foul)


Though the Celtics fully deserve an honorable mention for providing their part in this historic 25-seconds-span of basketball ineptitude by allowing a mere seven def rebounds off them,Indiana enriches the magic world of bawfulness in a charmingly innovative way.And it's not even close as hilarious reading it as seeing it.Just give it to them

Anonymous Uka said...
So Marc Stein is not basketbawful reader. Not surprisingly given the nature of this blog and the fact that Marc Stein is the huge NBA player ass-kisser

http://espn.go.com/nba/powerrankings/_/season/2011/week/8

"Not sure if he's the first to say it, but the new nickname for Roy, Oden & Co. spotted in John Canzano's column in the Oregonian -- Frail Blazers -- rings as harsh as it is true. Just like Jail Blazers from another era to forget."

Blogger Wormboy said...
@stephanie g: If Vince turns it around, the FBI won't be looking into medical techniques, they'll me looking into "Manchurian Candidate" mind control.

@snake eyes: No disrespect for Dirk, but please. You can't put him in the same category as Olajuwon. Dream was the best offensive AND defensive player in the league for two years. Maybe would have been more, but it was the Jordan era. In those two years, he stole the lunch money from Ewing, Robinson and Shaq.

Olajuwon is the only player in NBA history to record more than 200 blocks and 200 steals in the same season. He averaged 3.09 blocks and 1.75 steals per game for his career.

He is the only center to rank among the top ten all time in steals.

Olajuwon averaged 33.0 points on .531 shooting, 10.3 rebounds, and 2.81 blocks in the 1995 Playoffs. He went through Robinson and Shaq to do so.

I recommend going to youtube to look up two things:
1) "Olajuwon dream shake"
2) "Olajuwon fade away"

Read his Wikipedia entry. The guy racked up some serious honors. And the best teammates he had were youngsters, roll players, and has beens. Drexler was probably the best in 95, but Dream was still carrying that team.

Who do you think aught big shot Rob? ;)

Anonymous kazam92 said...
Josh, I'm biased but no one fouled Hiney. Bosh jumped straight up, he flailed a bit and that was it. I watched the replay that airs at 3:00 AM. Wizards would've been better off trying for a jumpshot. I'm 100% sure Young would've nailed it

Anonymous Czernobog said...
@Wormboy: I think you should re-read the comment you're replying to.

Blogger Wild Yams said...
Wormboy - In fairness the league didn't keep track of blocks or steals until the 73-74 season, so that pretty much precludes Wilt and Russell from being in on that, and hurts Kareem as well since it was omitted during his first 4 seasons.

That said, I think it's ridiculous that Hakeem isn't considered a "foreign player". The guy was born and raised and spent almost the first two decades of his life in Nigeria. If Ricky Rubio had gone to the Timberwolves when they drafted him, would he not have been considered a "foreign player" just cause he started playing in America while in his teens? No, so why should that same logic be used for Hakeem?

kazam92 - You are biased. I already posted a video showing quite clearly in slow motion where LeBron's elbow slammed into Hinrich's shoulder just as he was about to release the ball. Here it is again for you. There's no way you can watch that and not think that totally disrupted Hinrich's shot. That was as clear a foul as you're ever gonna see, but the refs swallowed their whistles and gifted the Heat an undeserved win.

Blogger Josh said...
@kazam92

Seriously, just watch the video Yams links to. If you think that Lebron knocking into Hinrich's shoulder right before he releases doesn't alter the shot, they you obvious don't know how contact works. Anyone can see Lebron's contact ruins any possible full extension of Hinrich's arm on the shot. It also pushes him to the left of the basket because Lebron is coming from his right. Oddly enough, that's just where the ball happens to wind up: short and to the left.

Obvious foul, obvious whistle swallow. Hinrich isn't a Wade or a Kobe or a Lebron or a Pierce. He's not gonna get that call, blatant as it is. Sadly, a win is a win, undeserved as it may be.

Anonymous Czernobog said...
Yams - It's quite simple, Hakeem didn't play ball in any organized way outside the U.S. Not sure if he played any ball at all. Rubio was already a professional basketball player when he was drafted.

Do I really need to hammer this point any further? If you consider him an international then yes, he was clearly the best of the bunch. But he was entirely a product of American basketball training, while Rubio is a product of Spanish training, and Dirk is a mixed deal.

Blogger Wormboy said...
Yams, I DO consider Dream a foreign player. The fact that he didn't touch a basketball until he was in his late teens make him even more of a phenomenon.

Totally true about the blocks, gods know how many Russell or Wilt would've racked up. But Dream still has a pretty impressive resume, since he racked up steals as well. But how many players can you say were that dominant BOTH on offense and defense? There are plenty that CAN do it, but they usually don't to save their gas for the offensive end. Dream played shut-down D while being a top defender, top stealer, and top blocker, scoring 25-30 per night, and doing it every game. At his peak, the Dream really was a basketball freak. You know how Kobe says that playing soccer helped his basketball vision? I can't help but wonder whether the same wasn't true for Dream. Because the guy's court IQ for a center was way off the charts

Blogger Patrick said...
I was at that Wiz game and didn't feel too frustrated right after the game. It looked like there might have been some contact, but I wasn't surprised not to hear the whistle at that point in the game.

But watching the video Wild Yams linked to really burns me up. Hinrich's body and head are clearly jarred from the contact and it obviously affected the shot. With the way things were going in the last two minutes or so, he probably would have bricked both free throws, but at least that would have been us beating us, not the refs.

We did say walking out that at least we got to see JaVale try to murder James Jones.

Also, not shown on TV, a guy ate a 20 POUND hamburger (including bun and fixings) during the game. He started just before the tip and was done by the end of the fourth. Free burgers to everyone in attendance, or at least those who could ever eat one again after watching that.

Blogger Wild Yams said...
Czernobog - According to Wikipedia, Hakeem began playing basketball when he was 15 in Nigeria, and his play there led to his being recruited to play at the University of Houston. However, if we're defining "international player" to be where someone learned to play rather than where they grew up, then maybe Kobe Bryant should be considered the greatest international player ever since he learned to ball while growing up in Italy. Or maybe the time Shaq spent in Germany growing up should factor into whether he's considered an "international player" or not.

Wormboy - Kareem's prowess at both ends of the floor is one of the main reasons I'd list him as the second greatest player if all time. In addition to winning 6 MVPs and being the game's all-time leading scorer, he was also on 11 All Defensive Teams. It's too bad that Kareem, Wilt and Russell all either played or were in their primes before most of us were ever watching the sport. I often feel like they (Kareem especially, for some reason) get short shrift in some of these discussions.

Anonymous SnakeEyes said...
Wormboy - if you read my post, dude, I totally agree with you lol. Like I said - if there's no definition of an "international player" as in "not having played any U.S ball", then of course, far and away, Olajuwon is the best. I SAID that. But, like another poster said, Olajuwon played his college ball in the U.S., he wasn't really 'new' to the NBA with the whole new American lifestyle and culture shock or anything.

So, again, having said that, Dirk is the best one...WITH the generally accepted definition of what an "international player" is. Don't get me wrong, I"m with you, without any restrictions of what makes a player truly "international", of course it's Hakeem. I don't need to look up the Dream Shake dude, I'm usually the one who tells people about it - so I'm with you on that. But with the definition accepted today, I'd say Dirk is easily the best.

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