Robert Horry: The more things change, the more they don't. Around this time last year, Cheap Shot Rob thugged Steve Nash and set off a chain of events that will haunt the Phoenix Suns franchise forever. Now, did Horry know that Amare Stoudemire and Boris Diaw were going to jump off the Suns bench to see what happened to their fallen teammate? Of course not. But Horry did know that he was delivering a much-harder-than-necessary foul after the outcome of the game had already been decided. The only point of taking Nash out at that moment was, well, taking Nash out.

It was the same deal last night. There were still 10 minutes left in the game, but the Spurs were leading by 21 and the Hornets -- with the exception of Chris Paul -- were going down rather quietly. But that's when Horry chose to strike, setting a pick that literally took David West out of the game. Here's the video from Odenized.

Now, some people immediately dismissed the play as a "hard foul" and/or "playoff basketball." And to those people I say: Shenanigans. Horry measured West and gave him a shot right in the lower back. Horry knew West's back was injured. Everybody knew West's back was injured. It was a textbook example of a cheap shot.

Look, I've played a lot of basketball over the years, both organized and not-so-organized. Stuff like that doesn't happen by accident. It just doesn't. And if you think otherwise, then you're fooling yourself. Horry measured West and gave him a really hard -- and clearly illegal, since it resulted in an offensive foul -- shot into a part of West's body that was known to be injured. Did Horry intend to take West out of the game, or even incapacitate him for Game 7? Probably not. But that barely makes the act any less senseless. And whether he meant for it to happen or not, there's a pretty good likelihood that West will be far from 100 percent for Game 7. Which is a pretty good tradeoff for a simple offensive foul, isn't it?

And for those of you who are inevitably going to defend Mr. Cheap Shot, go ahead and answer this question in your defense: How would you react if you were playing pickup basketball and somebody purposely took a shot at your injured back/knee/ankle/whatever? Would you laugh it off as just a good, hard basketball play? Or would you want to strangle the guy?

Evil Ted's take: "After watching the Horry incident in regular and slow motion, I told Basketbawful that it looked mild, and that West shouldn't be playing professional basketball if his back can't sustain a hit like that. Of course, with each passing moment, I had to add preface after preface to my opinion. First, with West's pre-existing back condition, it makes the hit far more nefarious -- a true 'Sweep the leg' Cobra Kai moment. Second, if the hit had ever been issued to a bad-back-plagued Larry Bird and he went down, I would want blood and lots of it. Third, the hit illustrates the true subtle genius of the Spurs.

"They play basketball nowadays about as 'dirty' as any team in the league, but no casual basketball observer (that includes NBA officials, whom I now consider 'casual basketball observers,' by the way) could ever quite put a finger on what the Spurs are doing. From Ginobli flopping to the Duncan face to the Parker Oscar nominations to the Bowen foot defense to the Horry picks...every questionable thing the Spurs do must be analyzed in slow motion from ten different angles to determine whether there was intent or chicanery on a given play. No other team in the league has come close to perfecting this subtlety. It is very clear most of the time when other teams in the league are playing dirty -- they know nothing but shoving, clotheslining, punching, elbowing, kicking, etc. Many of us may despise the Spurs, but give them this: They have 100% perfected playing "their style" within the constraints of the league's rules and the officials' perceptions.

Historical precedent: Hey, Evil Ted: You might want to avoid this one for fear of the resulting bloodlust. Chuck Person put a hard pick straight into Larry Bird's achy-breaky back in Game 5 of the 1991 first round series between the Pacers and Celtics. Everybody knew what Person had done, but it was "only" a foul, right? Boston still won that game and moved on to the second round, but Person's cheap shot set off back spasms that were bad enough to force Bird to miss the first game of the Celtics' second round series with the Pistons. Not coincidentally, Boston lost that game.

Flopfest '08: Last night's game was competitive until the all-important third quarter, then everything fell apart for the Hornets. In a one minute, five second span, Chris Paul got called for two offensive fouls -- his third and fourth personals of the game -- and David West got numbers two and three, which were followed a couple minutes later by number four. All of a sudden, the Hornets were in foul trouble and the Spurs were rolling out to a huge lead. Game, set, match.

And, naturally, some of those critical fouls came courtesy of San Antonio's ongoing flopstravaganza. The NBA: Where The World Cup happens.

Mark Jackson: Shame on Action Jackson for repeatedly defending the Spurs' flop-a-thon. I wonder how he'd feel if he was playing or coaching against the Spurs in this situation?

David West: Even before Horry took him out, you could tell West just didn't have it. He had 10 points on 4-for-14 shooting, and both his mobility and ability to mix it up in the paint were limited. But that's pretty much what happens when somebody plays basketball with a bad back.

Peja Stojakovic: He scored 13 points on 5-for-10 shooting, which isn't terrible...unless you consider that, with West already hurting, the Hornets absolutely needed him to have a great game. But Peja has been almost entirely taken out of this series by Bowen's defense. Which is hard to believe, given Peja's rich history of playoff success. [/sarcasm]

Morris Peterson: The "fifth starter" for the Hornets, Mo Pete provided a listless performance: 3 points, 1-for-5 shooting, 6 rebounds, 2 assists. And in case you didn't realize this, New Orleans needs a solid contribution from every starter because of...

The New Orleans bench: Other than Julian Wright (8 points, 4-for-8), the Hornets got no significant contributions off the bench. Jannero Pargo (2 points, 1-for-6, zero assists), Bonzi Wells (zero points, 0-for-3), and Melvin Ely (5 points, 1-for-3) were awful. It's never good when you have to get 80-90 points out of your starting five every game, but that's where the Hornets are right now.

Road teams: They are now 1-20 in the second round. And counting.

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Blogger AnacondaHL said...
New Orleans,

Welcome to our hell. You can't even call it "injustice" anymore when it's the norm.

-Suns fan.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
you know they should put in a rule that if you intend to injure a player(COUGH Bowen COUGH) you're out as long as he's out.

if he can't play anymore you're out forever. it's your fault you shoulda thought of it before nailing the guy.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
Popovich-"When you face another man in combat, he is the ENEMY! The enemy deserves NO MERCY- IS THAT CLEAR?"


Did you see 270 pound Tim Duncan go flying backwards as if he were just blown up off the line by Lawrence Taylor when David West went to try and post up? Are you kidding? And Marc "I kiss the leagues ass so that someday I can be a coach" Jackson calls all this BS "good defense?" Wow. No, really, wow.

I have been watching hockey lately- that is how bad the NBA is becoming. And one thing our Canadian friends have figured out in their sport is the "diving penalty". If you flop or dive in hockey to draw a penalty- YOU are penalized, and now YOUR team has to kill 2:00 4-on-5. THAT is a deterrent to flopping.

It's time for the NBA to stop rewarding floppers and start giving techs or worse (two shots and the ball anyone?) to players who try and pull this BS.

Blogger Cait said...
And this, sir, is why I continuously read your blog. It's a tough road out of the west as it is, but between Bowen and Ginobili flopping around the court and Horry trying to subtly paralyze West, this series won't be won on experience or lack thereof - instead, it'll be won on acting and overall douchocrisy.

I'll be at the arena on Monday night (hopefully), cheering on the Hornets. And should a Spurs player get knocked out of the game, I won't cheer for the Hornets player who committed the foul. 'Cause only Spurs fans do it. (Oh, and Miami, Virginia Tech and Florida fans...but that's another story for another season.)

Anonymous Anonymous said...
Byron Scott should send in a guy that hasn't been used at all to thug Horry or Bowen or Manu or Parker or Duncan. Any one of them. Just DeShawn-to-Lebron him.

And again, if the NHL refs can determine what's flopping and what's not from live action, why can't NBA refs learn to do the same thing? Then we can add flopping as a foul. An automatic-shooting foul.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
I'm amazed to see this blog become a circle-jerk of self-pitying Suns fans after every Spurs win. You guys might want to be careful what you wish for: a flopping rule would hurt Chris Paul as much as anyone on the Spurs.

Blogger Basketbawful said...
anonymous -- I'm all for putting an end to flopping no matter who it hurts, the Spurs, CP3, or whomever.

Blogger Basketbawful said...
Oh, and in case you didn't notice, there are plenty of Lakers and Spurs fans circle-jerking each other about how unfairly criticized they are. Welcome to that circle. It's BYI lotion and Kleenex, by the way.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
eh...the pick wasn't so bad. in the regular season oberto fell on baron's bad knee...baron was pissed. i think that's a fair bit worse.

Blogger Cait said...
I have noticed that - I was reading Lakers' fans reactions on a message board this morning and wincing.

BTW, if you're ever wanting to check out Hornets fans in our natural and semi-inebriated state, my fiance does a live chat for NOLA.com for every game - http://blog.nola.com/gladow.

All fans are welcome, but please - leave any douchtardedness at the door.

If I don't score a ticket to Game 7, I'll be watching the game from home with a big glass of pinot noir, my CP3 jersey and a computer for ranting alongside other Hornets fans. Whooooooooooooooo!

(And yes, I'm really, really fired up this morning. Or maybe it's just the coffee.)

Anonymous Anonymous said...
Wow, just wow. What kind of morons would chant Robert Horry's name after he pulls that crap. In my mind Spurs fans in general just lost a TON of credibility.

There is an ongoing debate as to whether the Spurs reputation for boring, dirty, floparific basketball is warranted (see the post on Truehoop yesterday) and of course Spurs fans tend to be the only ones who deny it. Well, I think we can safely say that everyone who was chanting Horry's name after that foul (Spurs fans) has absolutely NO IDEA what dirty basketball does and does not look like.

Just disgusting. The entire Spurs organization should be embarrassed, and Horry's lame, gimpy ass should be out the league. The foul wasn't even that bad. I think there was intent to get in a cheap shot, but just like the Steve Nash incident, I don't think he meant to actually hurt the guy. The fans' reaction though was absolutely shameful.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
I only have one jersey and it's hockey jersey LOL I just dont' like NBA jerseys they should have the logo on the front like the raptors used to instead of just the name so stupid

Blogger djnumbers said...
Can we get off the bad officiating topic, please. And when I say we I really mean you, Basketbawful.

C'mon man all three calls in the Spurs-Hornets video you posted were legit. Is it ok for CP to do the Heisman on his opponents? Is stepping in front of a man driving to the basket illegal now? There are guys known for flopping, but Bowen, although dirty, isn't a flopper and neither is Duncan.

You're off your criticism game regarding officiating. Can we all adjust to the new direction the officiating? You're gonna drive yourself crazy scrutinizing all these calls. It really all evens out in a given game save for gaffes like in the Orlando-Detroit game with Billups' three. One team with more free throws than the other says that team is more aggressive and/or more defensively disciplined, not lucky or favored.

Give it a rest, man.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
Meh. Disclaimer: I'm a Spurs fan.

But I was watching the game with a couple of Hornets fans and even they admitted that some of those fouls you dismiss as flops were legit.

West's foul on Duncan's layup was clearly a foul, and I don't know how you could think otherwise.

West's offensive foul on Duncan also looked legit to me at the time, though I haven't watched the replay. Duncan just got there first and planted his feet. Whether he should've fallen or not (and I don't see how you wouldn't fall if a guy rammed against you and you had your feet stationary) doesn't make it any less of a foul.

In Paul's first offensive foul he's clearly pushing Bowen away with his free hand. Don't you agree?

The other two fouls were suspect, and looked bad to me at the time. I'll admit as much, and I hate it when refs influence games like that. But there's been a bit of homecooking in every game of this series, so it's not anything new.

Personally, as a Spurs fan I prefer to be hated and successful than respected and forgotten. Teams that year after year are right there always make enemies - it's overexposure, I imagine, and some degree of hopelessness.

Back to the topic, I only wish for game 7 to be called fairly.

And for the Spurs to win, of course.

Blogger Basketbawful said...
djnumers -- Thank you for correcting me. I have seen the light. I'm going to abandon Basketbawful in order to start something like TheRefsRule.blogspot.com, or maybe TheSpursAndLakersAreAwesome.blogspot.com. You have given me a new direction for my life, and, again, I thank you.

But seriously, rewatch that second "charge" and tell me Bowen didn't flop. Or do you really, honestly, and truly believe that Chris Paul really sent him flying 15 feet backward? Because I've seen a lot of contact in a lot of games over the course of a lot of years...and I find it exceptionally hard to believe that Bowen was that abused.

dm -- Well, if Hornets fans said it, I've been trumped. Egads!

Here's the thing: When is it "hard, playoff contact" and when is it a foul. Take Pau Gasol going over the back on Okur in Game 5 of the Jazz-Lakers series. That wasn't called, and Gasol scored the game-breaking basket because of it. But Lakers apologists got their panties in a bunch and claimed Okur just flopped and, anyway, that's just hard playoff basketball...right?

But when Duncan and Bowen start flopping all over the place, it IS a foul. So which is it? Because at least two of those fouls in the video I posted today were less egregious than what didn't get called against Gasol. So what's a foul and what isn't?

Oh, but the officiating is totally consistent this year...MY BAD. Why am I wasting my time talking about it?

Anonymous Anonymous said...
I think Basketbawful hit the nail on the head with that post. I agree with you DM that a couple of those questionable calls were legitimate fouls, but why make those calls right there?

The point guard using his arm to make space happens just about every time down the court on BOTH sides. Why on earth would the officials make that call right then and there?

West's foul on the Duncan flop was also the result of contact that occurs just about every damn postup, but because Timmy launched himself backwards like he got shot out of a cannon, West is in foul trouble.

The problem, to me at least, is not that those calls were necessarily "bad" calls. It is the fact that those calls are very rarely made in the NBA, and to see them get whistled one after another after another, all benefiting one team... it just smells a little off.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
people who play basketball would normally spread their arms to grab the other player's fall in the situation instead of "bracing for contact with both arms (plus elbows) crossed" a la cheap shot bob

Blogger Jerry Vinokurov said...
Incidentally, the very same maneuver that Paul got called for in this game was called as a defensive foul on Kirilenko when Kobe shoved him out of the way in game 5.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
In clips 1 and 2, Paul pushes off. Both are clear offensive fouls. The problem is, if contact is not exagerrated, no call will be made, even though CP is committing a foul. That is a problem with officiating. Say you're a defensive player, and David west lowers his shoulder into your stomach, but you stand your ground and don't fall back, you will NEVER get that offensive foul call. That is unfair. Flopping isn't pretty, but it is a response to the rule changes favoring the offensive players in the last couple of years.

Also, I'd like to point out that DWade was allowed to push off like Paul did in this clip all the time in the '06 finals. In fact, they called a blocking foul on the defense most of the time (for an example, see the last minutes of game 6 v. Nowitzki).

Blogger Wild Yams said...
I saw it suggested somewhere online (can't remember where) that the league office should just review every game afterwards and look for flops, and then should retroactively assess points to them, and when the points exceed a certain amount, that player gets suspended. Follow the same rule that too many technicals or flagrant fouls get you suspended, and once you exceed it, every other one gets you another suspension. One of the main issues with flopping is it's too hard to tell in real time whether it's a flop or legit. You really need instant replay to clearly determine whether someone flopped or not.

The flopping is ruining the sport, and every team does it. Every team has players who are masters at it. It doesn't matter who started it or who does it the most, cause it's everywhere. I said this in a previous post, but I would just be in favor of the league doing whatever they can to try to punish any behavior by a player on the court in which that player is attempting to utilize the refs to his advantage; whether he's flopping, taking an intentional off the ball foul (hack a Shaq), trying to step in front of a driving player to get a charge, or grabbing a guy as he blows past you cause your defense sucked. IMO the league should look at any free throws as a bad thing, because it's slowing the game down, cutting into the action and making it less enjoyable for fans. As such, attempts to intentionally stop the game and/or send players to the line should be discouraged and punished.

In addition to this issue, the league has got to address the perceived bias in officiating. They have no choice at this point, the entire fanbase is upset with how games are being called, and the insufferable rigidity and opacity in all levels of officiating. I understand not wanting widespread instant replay in games because it would slow games down; but hello, tight games move about as slow as molasses in the last few minutes already due to all the timeouts! Is there a reason the league can not utilize all those insufferably annoying timeouts to at least have the refs review questionable calls? Teams have a seeming unending supply of timeouts already, so just have the coach call a timeout if he feels that the play that just happened seemed suspicious; then when the broadcast goes to commercials the refs can take a look and have a ruling waiting for everyone once the station returns to the game. Why is this so hard for the league to figure out? Empower the refs to be able to get together and if they unanimously agree that none of them really saw clearly what happened on a questionable play that they can take an official timeout and check the replay (the networks will love this anyway as it'll give them an excuse for yet more advertising).

The bottom line is that the biggest consumers of the NBA's product are not happy with it. When even fans of the Lakers and Spurs are upset with how things are being called, that more than anything should be evidence enough that something, anything needs to change! As an NBA fan I'm just plain sick of always having this issue come up year after year after year and the debate gets less and less interesting with each successive season. Please fix the NBA. Thank you.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
I didn't mean to imply that having a Hornets fan agree with me made me right by default. I just wanted to point out that those calls weren't so egregious that only a biased Spurs fan like me wouldn't think they were fouls.

And yes, basketawful, you're completely right in that officiating is completely inconsistent and that it hurts the game. There's a Boston player that should've been suspended for leaving the bench like Amare was last year against us, if Stern cared about being consistent and fair.

But I'm saying that there's some logic to those calls within _this_ particular series' reality so far. I think refereeing has favored the home team in just about every single game so far - but that's just my opinion. Because the same bad fouls that we got last night were the ones that the Hornets got at NO, with CP getting just about every call.

When you can't be consistent from game to game in a series, you can't expect them to call it even in the entire NBA.

Anyway, just my two cents. Great site.

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Answer these:

Was Horry set before West left his feet?

Did the fact that West left his feet make the impact far worse than it would have been had he been on the floor?

Have you ever been hit with a solid back pick?

Although it hurts and the screener oftentimes crosses the line, it's a legal play.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
I second the opinion that the Spurs fans demonstrated a new low in classlessness. They have almost caught up with Utah for having the crown of biggest douche bag fans in the league.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
Pause the play at the 39-40 second mark and you can see that Duncan is set before West leaves his feet. He was going to set a perfectly legal backscreen.

It's unfortunate that West's back was already injured and he left his feet but I don't believe it was a dirty play.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
What the heck is this? Spurs fans chanting "Horry! Horry" after he took out West? Aren't Spurs fans supposed to be, like, not retarded? Seriously, I'm sick of the cheap ball the Spurs have resorted to, what with the flops, Duncan faces, and Cheap Shot Rob making his annual hit, and now their fans are acting like Reggie Miller attacking 10-letter words. Nothing would please me more than to see New Orleans slaughter them in game 7.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
I’m going to start a tradition, and anyone else is welcome to play along at home. Much like how the 72 Dolphins toast the loss of the final undefeated NFL team each season with champagne, I’m going to shotgun a beer to salute the exact moment when the San Antonio Spurs are knocked out of the post season.

Here’s hoping I crack one after Game 7.

Blogger Christian Angelo said...
Hey Mr Bawful! I linked yours and Mr.Evil Ted's take on my Robert Horry entry in the Philippines' number 1 basketball blogsite (Not like it's a real good thing lol) check it out


Blogger HC Earwicker said...
Watching the game last night, there were questionable calls on both ends. Because the Spurs have the reputation for flopping (which is well deserved) their flops get a lot of attention. I am trying in vain to search for a video of a play in the first half in which a jogging Manu managed to knock Tyson Chandler on his ass. I'm not defending the Spurs' play, I'm just arguing that the flopping issue is far more widespread than the Spurs and various foreign players. It's pretty much reached epidemic levels, like that monkey-bite disease from Outbreak.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
ok, im gonna make the claim that this comment is unbiased because i hate both the spurs and the hornets. the video you posted shows 3 offensive fouls. the first one where bowen goes up with paul, that looks like a legitimate offensive foul. bowen (who i hate more than anyone) went up straight with his arms straight up and paul did use his off hand to push him away, making him fall. if someone goes up in the air and someone going that fast pushes off on him, hes gonna fall.

the 2nd call, where paul pushes off on bowen on a fast break, that looked like bad officiating rather than a flop. that should have been a no call. bowen was running side by side at a high speed and a small nudge sent him flying.

the third call where david west got an o foul for knocking down tim duncan. that looked more like bad balance and a flop. david west was going more east and west with tim duncan at his diagonal, put his feet down with his upper body behind his legs, and then leaned back with the contact with david west's arm.

this may seem like a lot of analysis but whatever.

about the robert horry foul, looks like he didnt get the pass when he cut to the basket, saw ginobili driving and set a back pick on his own man only to have a pass that was intended for him hit the backboard. you could definitely see him put that little umppf in his screen by pushing his body forward so you'd get more of a head on collision rather than one thing hitting a stationary object (jeeze what am i smoking?) same thing he did to nash last year, and same thing chris webber did in the playoffs when he was playing the lakers i think. cheap shot bob is one of the best improvised nicknames ever.

go lakers

Anonymous Anonymous said...
wow a lot of clowns here. matt nailed it - can paul really send bowen flying like that? no. someone said bowen and duncan aren't floppers, which is homerism at its finest. i read that "if you pause it at 39-40 seconds, duncan's feet are set." thats cause its paused dumbass. duncan then proceeded to launch himself 10 feet in the other direction. the spurs have been getting away with this shit for years, and it is why i absolutely hate everybody associated with that team. yes, that includes the trainer. he's on the spurs, so he sucks.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
That video of the Spurs flopping just made me hate them 10 times more.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
this is so funny...every team in the nba has floppers. have for years. ask john stockton...

what kills me is the lack of "playing basketball" knowledge going on here. when you play basketball, you get physical with other people. you run into them, you push them in the back (ask melvin ely about this next time he fronts duncan) and you definitely set screens. sometimes those screens are hard. ask the pistons of the 90's about it...

if you watch that play develop, it's obvious that horry is expecting manu to go baseline and he sets a pick. he pushes forward to brace himself for the inevitable hit that comes on a pick when you play basketball, and West leaves his feet making things much worse. Horry does not punch, push, or even shove West in this instance. If anyone should be upset at anybody else, it should be West confronting his coach as to why the HELL he was in the game down 21 with a bad back...

do NOT come to my rec league to play ball unless you have some kleenex you pansies.

(note: the crowd was definitely out of line on this one)

Anonymous Anonymous said...
oh, and in response to this:

"And for those of you who are inevitably going to defend Mr. Cheap Shot, go ahead and answer this question in your defense: How would you react if you were playing pickup basketball and somebody purposely took a shot at your injured back/knee/ankle/whatever? Would you laugh it off as just a good, hard basketball play? Or would you want to strangle the guy?"

This ain't pickup basketball, this is the NBA...ask Kurt Rambis.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
If Horry didn't delivered the hip check last year, this would be a non-issue. People defending the pick will say he was "bracing for the contact", while haters will say "he balled up his fists and aimed for the back", both views are valid. Had Horry kept his fists low, wouldn't he have hit West on the butt? It would seem that would make West's back bend at a weird angle. Not saying it would have been any better but maybe people are just mad he set a back pick in the first place. Point is it's hard not to let personal hatred for the spurs or personal admiration for the hornets affect your judgement.

...also there are a few dumb fans in every arena. remember when Duncan sprained his ankle against the Sonics in the playoffs? The Seattle crowd was cheering and the announcers said it was classless.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
so wait, when Garnett hits that guy on the Hawks like a football safety on a pick, hes awesome. when the spurs do it, they are evil. when nash and bell flop...? as far as whining to the refs, EVERY PLAYER IN THE NBA DOES IT. CONSTANTLY. I (used to much more) love this blog, but dude, you really need to stop bitching about the spurs (and lakers) over and over. its become tiresome, and it was already inconsistent.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
Its playoff basketball... stop whining. Just like if you have a PG that is constantly getting to the basket, your big man might have to foul him hard to discourage him... Just like if you hate going to your left...i make you go left. The whole goal is to capitalize on weakness. I'm not saying throw guys in the game to purposefully hurt people, but i'm definitely willing to put a matt harpring on kobe or a robert horry on david west for a few minutes and play super physical. Its good strategy to me. If he's playing so hurt that he's sensitive to contact, get out of the game. And by the way, when do you ever justify not playing hard because of the score?? Thats a horrible argument to even imply that because they had the game in hand, that screens shouldn't be set like that.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
so you condone clothelining? its a unbelievable cheap shot, the fact that he has to resort to such tactics is pathetic. he has no class and nobody can convince me other wise. we all know basketball gets physical. but he is clearly washed up and the only way he can get a leg up is by pulling the crap he is pulling at this point.