Kurt Floppas

Seriously. I want to know. I got several grumbly comments from Spurs fans stating that last night's offensive foul calls were totally legit. But you know, my favorite era of basketball occurred in the mid-80s to mid-90s, and other than the usual suspects -- Bill Laimbeer, Dennis Rodman, Reggie Miller, Vlade Divac -- I don't remember seeing so many flailing bodies flying and falling all over the damn court. Nor do I remember men the size of Tim Duncan and Kurt Thomas (shown flopping above) getting brutalized by men the size of the miniature Chris Paul.

Oh, and when I play pickup basketball, it's funny how I never seem to get run over by guys who are almost 100 pounds (!!) lighter than I am (Duncan weighs in at 260 pounds; Paul is 175 soaking wet). Uh, it's called the Law of Physics, people. Look it up. It'll be in a big book called "Science."

So let's come up with a consensus answer. What's a flop? Does anybody even know anymore? According to some of you, I don't. And, apparently, the refs don't either...since it's okay for Pau Gasol to climb Mehmet Okur's back like a fireman's ladder but CP3 can use his tiny forearm to fling Bruce Bowen 15 feet across the court.

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Blogger GMoney said...
And that is what sucks...there is no way that you can define, for a rule book, what a flop is. We just have to grin and bear it and hope that the refs swallow their whistles.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
I feel like those flop calls were legitimate.

They were both semi-flops, however when Bruce Bowen is back-pedaling at a high speed and Chris Paul uses a forearm to push-off on him (seemingly) you have to make the call.

I can't say I like the Spurs anymore, I used to be a fan, but the flops got to me.

However, you MUST make that call in a game, because it wasn't blatant enough to assume it was a flop, especially moving at Chris Paul speed.

I feel like some problems with officiating come from the refs not being able to get the best angle in fastbreaks.

Maybe two refs that stand around the baskets at all times would help more of the break-away call angles.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
Gmoney, that's bullshit. This is the THIRD time I'm posting this in the comments section, and I'm gonna do it in bold this time to get my god damn point across. If NHL referees can tell when a dive is a dive, then why can't NBA refs learn when a flop is a flop? Seriously, diving on the ice and flopping to the court are not that different in nature.

Anyways, a flop is a gross over reaction to minor contact. Bowen nearly falling into the third row on the second Paul offensive foul is clear flopping. There was barely any contact and Bowen continued like he was on ice. That's a clear flop. Tim Duncan diving backwards 5 feet while being legally posted up by Chandler (or was it West?) is a flop.

Blogger Graydon said...
I think there is a distinct difference between "selling a foul" and "flopping". To bring attention to what should be called a foul strikes me as just savvy basketball, while falling over without contact or creating the illusion of a foul is a flop. For instance, West's charge on Duncan: Duncan obviously sells the charge, but that doesn't change the fact that West barrels into him with Duncan's feet planted.

Also how can you say you don't remember guys the size of Duncan and Thomas flopping when three of the four guys you cite from the 80's are Rodman, Laimbeer and Divac.

Blogger Graydon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger TheOdenator said...
What needs to happen more often is what happened with Tony Parker, when he was going to try to flop on a Suns fast break, and he just got thrown across the floor. You are going to get a foul called on you anyways, make them pay for the flops. Pau Gasol also had the right idea in the Lakers game against Utah. When Okur flopped all he saw was an open lane to the basket. While this won't be very helpful for the rest of the playoffs, since the Spurs last game is in NO, it is something teams should keep in mind for next years regular season.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
It's about time they just give up on having referees. Gonna have to do it like they do in the streets. Call your own fouls. Each team brings a Charles Oakley type hombre and let him handle the disagreements.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
prety much what the above said
I agree
call foul on both LOL

Blogger Ken said...
i think its called the law of momentum and found in the big book called Physics.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
When is a play called Dirty?


Anonymous Anonymous said...
Flop-tayto, Flop-tato

Let's just watch some hockey until Stern gets the message and clears up these shenanigans.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
speaking of hockey
does anyone know of a hockey equivalent of basketbawful?

Blogger Wild Yams said...
Ack, this conversation keeps jumping from one entry to the next. My long ass answer was in the last thread, but my short summary is this: it's too tough to know definitively whether someone is flopping or not as it happens (some are obvious, but many are not), and you really need to look at it again with slo-mo instant replay to see what really happened. Henry on TrueHoop had a great entry about this very thing, using the Gasol/Okur play as an example that you should check out if you haven't already (especially you, Mr. Bawful, since you keep claiming that Gasol fouled Okur on that play). I think the league needs to make getting rid of flopping a top priority and should start reviewing tapes after games and assigning points to players for flops afterwards, and when a player gets a certain number of points they get suspended for a game. This way, even if you fool the refs in one game, you may be forced to miss the next one as a result. I think it's the only real way to get rid of flopping, cause otherwise you could get refs calling flopping fouls when replays show someone clearly wasn't.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
When I watched that ridiculous foul where Bowen went flying out of bounds like he was shot from a cannon, I laughed. A lot. That's a flop. When it causes you to laugh because of the sheer silliness of it, then there's your flop.


Anonymous Anonymous said...
Here's my definition:

In basketball, a "flop" occurs when a clearly biased observer (read: basketbawful) overreacts to an embelishment of routine physical contact displayed by a player of the team the observer unabashedly dislikes (read: Spurs or Lakers), during a basketball game in which said team in competeing.

A "mental" or, some might say, "moral" flop is committed when said observer fails to acknowledge, let alone denounce, examples of flopping committed by the teams he favors (read: Hornets or Suns), choosing instead to endlessly harp on those examples that "prove" his bias against certain teams (read: Spurs and Lakers) is justified. This is often accompianied by photo graphic "evidence" that proves his assertions.

Blogger Basketbawful said...
indyjones1024 -- Ooo! Ooo! I've got one for you! A "Critic Flop" is one in which the the said critic tries to lay the whammy on somebody without providing specific examples of similar chicanery.

So I'll tell you what, Docter Jones. You go out and find an example of the Suns or Hornets getting a cluster of flop-style fouls in a single minute of action, or hell, even a couple minutes, during a critical stretch of a crucial home playoff game...calls that put the opposing team's two best players in foul trouble.

If you can do that, then I promise I will make a special post all about it, crediting you and apologizing for my unforgivable bias.

You've got your assignment and a one-time chance to make me eat crow. Go for it.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
yes because ALL fans are not biased rIIIIIiiiiiiiiiiight

I on the other hand am an Anti-fan
much like the anti-hero who could be considered hating the team he cheers for but really just wants them to do well and is very critical of stupidity LOL

ooo you could use that for word of the day: Anti-Fan!!!

Anonymous Anonymous said...

So, only a "cluster" of "flop-style" (is that real flop, or just a flop that's a flop because it looks like a flop to you?) fouls committed during a one minute period of a crucial playoff game taht gets two of a team's best players in foul trouble would prove that a certain team flops?

Ok, by that brilliant logic, the Spurs weren't floppers until just last night! Therefore, what you should do is go through all of your old posts, and delete any complaints about the Spurs' flopping up until last night. That would be the consistent thing to do, correct?

And while you're at it, maybe you can find some saucy pics of Raja Bell jettisoning himself into the stands after somebody's elbow grazed him, or CP3's "ballerina-style" flop, in which he spins 1080 degrees after getting bumped by Oberto in game 1. Go for it, I won't even ask you to find video of his dead-ball flop again Bowen earlier in that same game. Surely those two examples, in the same half of the same game, equal three or four of the Spurs' more "conventional" flops in game 6.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
That, my friends, is a throwdown. Let's see if the gauntlet is picked up.

Justin Sane's on the money. Even if he once Justin Sane, got no braaaiin! (Sorry for the bad reference, but I had to). Also, don't feed me bullshit about the difference between selling a foul and flopping. Just play goddamn ball. If I wanted to see flopping, I'd watch soccer or go to a drama school (read: Spurs training camp).

Hockey is a great example, and the reason the sport won't die is because its core of fans never change. They want to see hockey intensity, not flopping. And, now, they get it (for the most part). I also agree with the goon squad. As a matter of fact, were I a coach, I would probably say something like, "Ok scrub. Horry just laid out our boy. You go do what's best for the team, and the team will pick up your fine and suspension loss-of-income."

Hell, MJ owes Cliff Livingston at least a new Lamborghini and beachfront property for being his protector. If I had my pick, I'd find a MMA fighter that had some skills and just keep him on my bench, but at the end of the floor facing lengthwise. He'd get a bonus for any stare that lasted over 10 solid minutes.

Blogger Wild Yams said...
Man, it is like ground zero around the blogosphere for this discussion today. Everywhere you turn, this is all anyone's talking about.

Blogger AnacondaHL said...
To all:

Thanks for entering our world and discussion. You're two years late.

-Suns fan, literally praying for NO to whoop on SAS.

Blogger Hiphopopotamus said...
No matter how much some people love to play the devil's advocate, there is simply no way that you could watch Bruce Bowen be hurled 15 feet because Chris Paul extended his forearm and not know that it was a flop. You could have replaced CP3 with Adrian Peterson and it wouldn't have had that effect.

Duncan's flop when West leaned in a minute later was at least plausible. It was still an obvious flop, but there was no way he wasn't getting that call in that situation.

All flopping aside, I really don't see how the home/road disparity is in any way acceptable. It seems to be getting some press, but I don't think nearly enough considering road teams have only managed to win 1 game the entire round and it was by 1 point. Lest we forget the Pistons trailed by 15 so it's not like the Magic weren't set up to win. They just have no ability to play defense or rebound (excluding Dwight).

Blogger XForce23 said...
@wild yams
Pretty much the best solution overall is that Hornets win Game 7 and no one has to see the Spurs play for 5 months, which means no more talk about flopping

Anonymous Anonymous said...
I think the fact that everyone is debating flops today all over the blogsphere (either calling out the Spurs or defending them) makes one thing abundantly clear: last night was a disgrace and an embarassment for the NBA. Most defenders' comments can essentially be summed up in 2 ways: 1. Everyone flops, not just the Spurs, and 2. The Spurs are so good and everyone calling them floppers are just haters. Neither hold any weight in my mind. And Indy, your response to Bawful's challenge was weak at best. There was 3 minutes of absolutely shameful flopping by the Spurs last night, and to the challenge, you failed to give any examples of any other team doing it.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
It's easier to fix a game when you call flops. More potential foul calls means more controllable outcomes.

So much for fixing the referee scandal.

I think they should invent an additional infraction called a warning whereby if a player (offensive or defensive) fakes a hard contact the play is stopped but no shots are awarded. Ball is inbounded by the offense. If the defense was the faker, the shot clock resets, otherwise shot clock stays put. Or some junk. This would still require officials who are A) honest, 2) wear glasses, and D) not brain dead.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
anacondahl just said it: you're entering the Suns world. We have a promising game 7 in our hands and you turned this into a flop-or-no-flop discussion, and then a silly challenge.

I thought you were going to at least answer some of the more thoughtful comments, but you write as if the Spurs could do no right, and the Hornets could do no wrong in your eyes.

I read Basketbawful every day, and I really don't remember you calling CP out for that ridiculously stupid 720ยบ spin dive after Oberto bumped him. Just imagine if a Spur would've done that. Maybe you did and I just missed it... but I doubt it.

I'm biased, but to me there seems to be a double-standard in your comments, and that's sad to me because you always seemed pretty unbiased before. It bugs me to read what I believe is unfair criticism of my favorite team in one of my favorite sites.

Whatever. It's not like we pay you for all the good stuff you put in this blog. If anything, I owe you for the hours of entertainment.

Cool Indy costume.

Blogger Basketbawful said...
dm -- The challenge wasn't silly. I did it to prove a point. That point being this: I rarely call attention to any single flop in this or that game. Flopping has become such an integral part to the NBA game that it's easy to become desensitized to it. If I were going to point out each flop, my site would probably be nothing but flopping...and I think there's already a site devoted to that.

I specifically pointed out this particular game because there were a series of flop-related calls in succession, and it caused the opposing team's two best players to get into foul trouble during a critical stretch of a playoff game...after which the team benefitting from the flops went on a huge, game-ending run.

The thing is, we're taught to believe that the refs allow additional contact in the playoffs,and it certainly seems that way. Much more bumping, grinding, etc. goes on. Of the three flops in the video I showed, you could easily argue that the contact was just playoff basketball. Hell, it's more like regular season basketball. I mean, Kobe and D-Wade go to the hole forearm first almost every time, and LeBron does it a fair share himself. As do several of the post players.

Anyway, back to the point. I issued the challenge because this was an egregious and somewhat unique case, considering all the circumstances involved. So all the people who wanted to jump on the "Basketbawful is just biased" bandwagon should stop for a second and consider all the facets that went into the situation. I wasn't point out A flop, but a series of flops, most of which were questionable at best, that had a major impact on a key playoff game. THAT, not some insipid hatred of the Spurs, is why I included it in WotN.

I usually assume this stuff is obvious to you people, because I think that, by and large, I get a lot of intelligent comments. But I think that some people have become so biased toward my supposed biases, they tend to miss things.

Now, as for responding to the thoughtful comments...well, I get a little behind. If you list or rewrite the ones you'd like me to answer, I promise I will answer them this weekend.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
Well, considering your response to indy's comment in the other post and how logical you sound here, I'll just let it go. You're probably right, and I wouldn't be so cavalier about this whole incident if it'd been the Hornets getting the calls.

However, I still think some of those were legitimate fouls, and that the Spurs shouldn't be blamed for the inconsistent refereeing. And that homecooking with ticky-tacky fouls going the home team's way was the norm in this series. CP certainly seems to get the "NBA stud" treatment from the refs.

Not that I won't be rooting for the Hornets to kick Kobe's ass if they win that game 7.

Thanks for replying.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
All this "flopping" and "dirty" talk is strictly sour grapes. It was started by Suns fans after they were destroyed by the Spurs 3 out of 4 playoffs. I know this is how it works because after my team lost to the Suns 2 straight years, I hated the Suns for their flopping. Naturally, the whining Suns fans' complaints were eagerly picked up by the Nash-loving national media.

I know you're not going to admit the above, but you might want to stop constantly whining about the officiating. It makes you look ridiculous. I mean, is there any other fanbase in the league that continues to complain EVEN when their team is winning the series?

Anonymous Anonymous said...
Mr. Basketbawful: You say you rarely refer to flopping in isolation. I have been reading your blog for a long time now and it is my recollection that you frequently refer to perceived flops, fouls, and other things you don't like in a game. I thought these were the things you called "basketbawful." I assumed that these were the very things that mootivate your blog (which I enjoy very much btw).

You have twice referred to the Gasol foul (that I remember).

#1: Gasol did not "climb" Okur's back. He put a forearm in his back and pushed him when he came up to prepare for the rebound. Was it a foul? Yes, though not much of one, and -- ironically -- the precise kind of foul favored by multiple Jazz players when waiting for rebounds and trying to get position. You must know this: they are legendary for pushing, pushing off, slap fouls, and improper use of forearm. Everybody knows this. I don't care, I like hadr basketball and they go about their sneaky fouling pretty openly and honestly, but let's be clear about this. They foul a lot.

#2 (and this is the best part): OKUR FLOPPED! I think it is hilarious that you haven't pointed this out! If you don't agree then you obviously can't watch video. I don't mind that he flopped, and I'll even concede that he was fouled before the play: but he obviously (what's your definition?) "embellished his reaction to routine physical contact." And he did it badly, waiting a full second after Gasol wasn't even touching him to start flailing his arms and half-assedly stumbling forward.

Now THAT'S Basketbawful!

Blogger All Out Ward said...
I will admit my bias as a Suns fan from the jump. That being said, I have never (to my recollection) seen or heard a basketball fan that wasn't on the Spurs bandwagon defending their flopping or denying the existence of flopping by the Spurs. Obviously there's a rivalry between the Spurs, Suns and other western conference teams that have run into the Spurs. But even a Bucks fan would say that the Spurs are floppers. Listen, Ginobili is a great player. He can be a bad motherfucker. But he will never get the respect he (likely) deserves because of his constant flopping. Parker is pretty talented but the same criticism can and should be levied upon the Frenchman. And if you try to refute the frequency of Parker's flopping, then you likely didn't read the article in which his WIFE blew his cover by revealing he stays on the ground longer to try to sell fouls. Pretty damning evidence, no? Do we have to get sworn testimony from his mother, too?

Anonymous Anonymous said...
I'm a big guy - Duncan - and I feel I have established position. Little guy - Paul - runs into me and crumples to the ground because I have a hundred pounds on him. Will I EVER get that call unless I hit the deck? What you'll get if I don't flop is well, let's go ahead and call it the crumble. Pick your poison folks.

Anonymous Anonymous said...
all out ward, seriously, get on with the times. When's the last time you have watched the Spurs play? Ginobili hardly ever takes charges any more, and he's toned that flopping you mention way down. It goes to prove that people just form an image in their minds of what a player is like at some point in their careers and then never update it or let it go.

Did you even see him flop in the last series we had? Did you watch that series?

And Parker gets clobbered all the time. He doesn't embellish those falls. Whether he stays on the floor more than necessary, I wouldn't know. But his wife is an idiot for saying that.

Blogger 2-Man Weave said...
That was fun! Thanks guys!

Did anyone else notice that every one of you thought throughout the discussion that you were the only unbiased observer in the discussion?

Funny how that works. It doesn't. But it's a blast to read!